Remembering 9-11 (merged anniversary thread)

[OldSolduer]

People burn Canadian flags all the time, I'm sure.  It's standard anti-government protest 101. Grab a flag, roll cameras, burn the flag, celebrate badassery.
How fast would our "right" be challenged if someone wanted to burn an Islamic Flag?

As far as I know, there is no such thing as an "Islamic" flag. Islam is a religion, not a nation.

 

[Rogo]

The Bible and others have gone through numerous revisions haven't they?  What if we took all the applicable religious texts and edited out all the violent cut your left hand off, stone people, kill whoever parts and had a  V.2010 kinder gentler edition.  Slowly but surely we start weeding out all the violent parts of the bible, quran etc.. and in a few generations religion won't be a reason to kill each other.

Now I am not religious so I can't speak for this with any degree of certainty however, I was under the impression that many religious texts have underlying messages meant to be aimed at maintaining social norms and order. The whole do this or go to hell is a way of motivating people to act the way they do.
Many revisions of religious texts can be attributed to people adding information (or maybe adding their "spin") on existing texts. If people continue to follow this "newer gentler" holy book of whatever kind, someone will take it and change it in order to influence people's actions against someone who may challenge the beliefs.  Seems realistic to me.

 

[Jarnhamar]

As far as I know, there is no such thing as an "Islamic" flag. Islam is a religion, not a nation.

Generally speaking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_flags

 

[Brad Sallows]

When a book, a flag, an effigy etc is burned, it is generally in protest: to make a political statement; hence, an act of freedom of expression or speech.  It is not an act of hatred except to the extent the protestors dislike whatever it is they protest.  A critic who announce he has discovered an act of hatred is like a tourist to London claiming he has discovered England.

 

[bdave]

But there is a difference between burning a holy book in your private dwelling in a fire place (violating no fire laws) and keeping it in a private setting and... creating a public stir and making huge signs and trying to justify your freedom to act this way against another's freedom from arbitrary harassment.

I don't understand.
The reason you are making a public stir is because you disagree with it, vehemently.
That is how you show others, and the government that you disagree with X.
Displaying this is a form of protest and a form of "speech".
As far as I know, burning my bible/koran/qur'an/flag does not impede on anyone else's freedom.
Making someone uncomfortable does not mean I am imposing on them. I am simply expressing myself in a manner that will get the most attention, which will further my cause. Which is the point of protesting in the first place.

 

[A-ryathker]

Even this? There's a problem with the word 'holy' or 'sacred;' who gets to decide? I do not regard the Tao Te Ching as either holy or sacred because many scholars have decided, and I am satisfied with their decision, that the religious components of Taoism are quite secondary to its philosophical components. In fact, as far as I know, Lao Tsu did not intend that his Tao Te Ching (or Daodejing, if you prefer) should be 'sacred' nor that he should be a god. He was a philosopher, akin to and a near contemporary of Confucius, who focused his thinking on ways to achieve spiritual balance and to comprehend (rather than understand) the universe and our place in it.

Let's not burn any books. The 'freedom of speech' (actually freedom of expression - which includes e.g. burning flags, displaying a crucifix in a jar of urine and so on) we many of you have pledged to defend as a fundamental right (but not a
natural right, I think) only counts when the most reprehensible speech must be defended; neo-Nazis and anti-Semites and racists and xenophobes and religious bigots and fools must be allowed to spew their venom - otherwise the 'freedom' is meaningless and our your defence of it is worthless.

Very true, Theres no real such thing as holy books by saying a physical object is holy your in essence making a idol of it, which is something Christians and Islam both condemn. You can believe a book contains what you think is the truth or is sacred.  Im sure if i burn a twilight novel outside the premier I will have an angry hoard of "Team Jacob" or "Team Edwards" after me.

On a different note I was disappointed to see our leaders and politicians using this as an excuse to make peace and love speeches to groom certain groups for votes. They should keep out of piety religious issues. Its inappropriate to use their public office titles to publicly take sides on a stupid issue that's not even in our country. They should be neutral and indifferent cause if they speak out on one instance of religious disrespect they should speak out on all, or it looks like their playing favorites.

 

[George Wallace]

....... They should keep out of piety religious issues.

Ah!  But is this a "Religious" issue or is it a "Cultural" issue? 

The question Canadians may ask is “Do we give up our personal and public security for a cultural "tradition" of a minority?”..........................In Canada we do.  The Sheiks set the precedence years ago.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . .

On a different note I was disappointed to see our leaders and politicians using this as an excuse to make peace and love speeches to groom certain groups for votes. They should keep out of piety religious issues. Its inappropriate to use their public office titles to publicly take sides on a stupid issue that's not even in our country. They should be neutral and indifferent cause if they speak out on one instance of religious disrespect they should speak out on all, or it looks like their playing favorites.

Which Canadian leaders and politicians were making "peace and love speeches" and which groups were they grooming for votes?  Could you provide examples?  After a while all the noise about this issue started to meld into one giant buzzing sound which many (myself included to a certain point) found to be only a distraction, so maybe I missed the crass politicking that you allege.  Not that I wouldn't put it past any politician (IMO a despicable species in any and all event) to use such an opportunity.  However in this case (and to my recollection only), most of the statements made by "Canadian" leaders and politicians were generally appropriate to the situation.  While the specific action may have occurred (or was threatened to occur) in an other country, the consequences of that action affected Canadians, most specifically those serving in uniform overseas alongside Americans.  Perhaps you should consider that the intended target audience (of some of those statements) were located nowhere near Canada or the USA.

Now you may think that this is a "stupid" issue, but I don't know which dictionary you use.  Whether we like it or not, the attention paid to this issue makes it far from "uninteresting", "dull", or "obtuse".  Would most (both here on this forum or in the wider world) like the actions of this person in Florida to be considered irrelevant (which I am supposing is closer to what you meant); I would hope so.  But that is not the case. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

My thoughts on religion.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . The Sheiks set the precedence years ago.

I'm supposing you mistyped and meant "Sikhs".

These are Sikhs

And these are Sheiks

Both historically significant in the military, but not interchangeable.

 

[Rogo]

Good comic strip.  ;D

 

[A-ryathker]

Which Canadian leaders and politicians were making "peace and love speeches" and which groups were they grooming for votes?  Could you provide examples?

After ramadan (muslim month of fasting and etc) A huge group of Muslims in the Toronto gathered at the ex Where several Islamic leaders used this as a platform to raise this issue and stir people up. After several Mayoral candidates addressed this crowd and did give peace and love speeches, The Ontario premier who is (slipping fast in the polls) and city councilors also make media statements etc. Even if you think that we should not allow such acts or our people overseas will suffer, tell me is national security or the war in Afghanistan really on these local politicians Job description? No. Diversity and tolerance are huge issues in Toronto since over 50 percent of people weren't born here, which im all for. But I have a problem with half hearted tolerance  and people who are so quick to condemn one side and fight for their opinions but not the other, and my opinion is that elected leaders should not interfere. I refuse to believe that there are 1,000s of mindless robots out there and that by burning a Koran you trigger an involuntary act of violence beyond their control and it is the fault of the one who triggered the act. They are people capable of making the right decisions in life, and by all the coverage against Mr Jones your reinforcing that  attitude that they cant help it its not their fault, they just really love that book thats all, its up to us not to set them off. The extremist hate us anyways and declared war on us a long time ago cause we allow strip clubs, bars, sex before marriage, Islam is not our official state religion etc.... 

 

[jollyjacktar]

Thanks RG.  I love Red Meat, and that is why.

 

[George Wallace]

I'm supposing you mistyped and meant "Sikhs".

These are Sikhs

And these are Sheiks

Both historically significant in the military, but not interchangeable.

You are correct...........Damn Spell Check in a rush to get a post in before rushing off to the Dentist.

 

[Privateer]

Ah!  But is this a "Religious" issue or is it a "Cultural" issue? 

The question Canadians may ask is “Do we give up our personal and public security for a cultural "tradition" of a minority?”..........................In Canada we do.  The Sheiks set the precedence years ago.

I think that the Scots brought their dirks and sgian dubhs over with them before the Sikhs brought their kirpans.  The precedent was already set.

 

[Nemo888]

In Pakistan, arguably the country most closely aligned with Sharia Law, burning the Koran is punishable by life imprisonemnt. Insulting the Prophet or Allah are capital offenses. Perhaps said offenders should be extradited. The US has had an extradition treaty with Pakistan since 1973,.....

Just making trouble.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/2/54/39365414.pdf
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/front-page/16-pakistan-has-extradition-treaty-with-us,-says-fo-110-hs-10

 

[57Chevy]

You are correct...........Damn Spell Check in a rush to get a post in before rushing off to the Dentist.

That would be sheikh, but sheik is more commonly used. First known use 1577

And sikhs are of Indian origin of the Punjab region, also 15th century

 

[mariomike]

Remembering 9/11:

I was working that day. They sent us into the financial district in downtown Toronto. We saw all the skyscrapers and the Eaton Centre being evacuated. Huge crowds of office workers streaming towards Union Station to go home in the A.M. on a business day. The court houses at Old City Hall, Osgoode Hall, University Ave. were all shut down because they were so close to the American Embassy. The CN Tower was also evacuated.
T-EMS sent a convoy of 50 Paramedics driving ambulances to NYC. ( They made it almost as far as the border, before being cancelled. )   

From New York:

"Nine years":
http://www.fdnyemswebsite.com/Page15.html

Ground Zero:
http://www.fdnyemswebsite.com/Page8.html
http://www.fdnyemswebsite.com/Page13.html

11 Sept., 2010:
"A solemn ceremony was held at the site of the World Trade Center in lower Manhattan, as well as at the Firefighter's Memorial on Riverside Drive; the EMS Memorial Wall in Fort Totten, Queens; FDNY Headquarters in Brooklyn; the Fire Museum in Manhattan; and at firehouses and EMS stations throughout the City.":
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/events/2010/091110a.shtml

( In New York City, firefighters, paramedics and EMTs are members of FDNY. )
http://home2.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ems_overview_042607.shtml

 

[Blackadder1916]

After ramadan (muslim month of fasting and etc) A huge group of Muslims in the Toronto gathered at the ex Where several Islamic leaders used this as a platform to raise this issue and stir people up. After several Mayoral candidates addressed this crowd and did give peace and love speeches, . . .

I didn’t consider a few Toronto local wannabes to be worthy of any inclusion (or the title ‘Canadian leader’) when I drafted the post to which you responded.  Actually, I didn’t think of them at all; I was discussing leaders on the 'national' stage.  I barely pay attention to the more than dozen mayoral candidates in our upcoming civic election.  To pay heed of similar no-name brands (and not even a President’s or anyone else’s Choice) from another city would be asking too much, even despite Toronto thinking it the centre of all things.

I was surprised by your description of this “gathering” of Muslims in Toronto.  Where was the media coverage of this demonstration during which the crowd was exhorted to frenzy?  It took a little searching to find the reports of this; I was able to find only two. 

Ramadan ends with condemnation of Qur'an burning

By TOM GODFREY, Toronto Sun
Last Updated: September 10, 2010 5:29pm

Threats by a Florida preacher to burn the Qur’an dominated a Muslim Eid al-Fitr celebration attended by more than 10,000 worshippers at the Exhibition Grounds Friday.

A hall at the Better Living Centre was converted into a large mosque that was packed with Muslims who kneeled on cardboard and rugs to pray as they celebrated a holiday that marks the end to the holy month of Ramadan.

The crowd was addressed by three mayoral candidates, in addition to provincial and federal politicians, who blasted preacher Terry Jones for threatening to torch the holy book.

Imam Abu Khudra chastised Jones for threatening the holiest book in his religion.

“There is a tiny minority who want to burn the Qur’an,” Khudra told a cheering crowd. “If Jesus was here he would chastise and denounce this preacher.”

Ontario immigration minister Dr. Eric Hoskins said his government also condemn the offensive act.
“The Qur’an is a holy book that is respected and provides guidance for millions,” Hoskins said. “We are committed to fighting ignorance and intolerance in Ontario.”

Toronto mayoral candidate Joe Pantalone said he’s been a friend of the Muslim community for many years.
“I am one of you,” Pantalone said. “If you vote for me I will be the first mayor whose first language is not English.”

Mayoral hopeful Rocco Rossi said he is the son of immigrants and knows how community members feel.
“If I am mayor it will show far the son of immigrants can rise,” Rossi said. “This is a country built by immigrants.”

George Smitherman told the crowd that as a gay man he knows what its like to be a minority.

The celebration was among several that took place on Friday at mosques throughout the GTA. More than 6,000 worshippers took part in another service at the International Muslims Organization mosque, on Rexdale Blvd.

And from the CBC
Toronto Eid celebration attracts thousands

'It's all about lending a helping hand'
Last Updated: Friday, September 10, 2010 | 10:54 PM ET
CBC News

Thousands of Muslims across the Greater Toronto Area are gathering to celebrate Eid al-Fitr, the holiday that marks the end of Ramadan.

After starting in 1985 with only several hundred people, the GTA Eid Festival now is described as the largest Muslim gathering in Canada. Organizers expected 15,000 people at the Direct Energy Centre at Exhibition Place on Friday, to pray and celebrate the end of a month of fasting.

"You see so many of the friends that you haven't seen since months — and you see them, greet them, wish them an Eid Mubarak, that's my favourite part," Sawitri Mardyani told CBC News.

Shabaz Khan, with the Muslim Association of Canada, said the theme this year is civic engagement.

"It's all about lending a helping hand, even people who are not in the same faith as you," he said. "So basically you're talking about prosperity as a country, as a nation, and community in general."

Eid pinches taxi users

The holiday is so pervasive in Toronto that it puts a noticeable dent in the cab business. Gail Beck Souter, general manager of Beck Taxi, said about 75 per cent of her workers practise Islam, and about half of them took the day off.

"The analogy I would use is a snowstorm, where the city pretty much comes to a halt," Beck Souter said.
She added that even though it took as long as 45 minutes to get a cab during the morning rush hour, customers are respectful of the holiday, which she said illustrates how accepting and multicultural Toronto is.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/09/10/toronto-eid-festival.html#ixzz0zpsFsq3L

I find it difficult to equate your suggestive description of the event with the reported gathering in a mosque and a festival (albeit a temporary house of worship, but still a house of worship) where a few people said that the Jones character was “a bad man, a very bad man . . . very, very bad”. 

As for the statements from the mayoral candidates – “I’m an immigrant; I’m the son of an immigrant; I’m gay” hardly rises to the level of “peace and love speeches” unless you consider Smitherman’s statement to be an enticement for the “love that dares not speak its name” (not that there’s anything wrong with that).  If anything the greatest disruption in Toronto from this Eid celebration was the inconvenience to Bay Street traders who had to take public transit because they couldn’t find a cab.

If you think that campaigning for election/re-election is not part of a politician’s job description, you may be hoping for a utopia that will never arrive.  And if you think that they won’t comment on an issue that is of importance to the constituency de jour, now you’re fantasizing.  The following day when they may have attended a gathering of left-handed, one-eyed, hunchbacked bellringers they would have agreed with a proposition for counter-clockwise twisted ropes and free safety glasses (or safety monocles?) in cathedrals.

With regard to general denunciations of Jones, I would question the sensibilities of anyone who would condone his actions.  It would have been better that no media attention was paid him from the get go, unfortunately, we no longer live in a world where that is going to happen.  Therefore, statements from elected officials reiterating the official policy of the various levels of government is entirely appropriate.

 

[A-ryathker]

I didn’t consider a few Toronto local wannabes to be worthy of any inclusion (or the title ‘Canadian leader’) when I drafted the post to which you responded.  Actually, I didn’t think of them at all; I was discussing leaders on the 'national' stage.  I barely pay attention to the more than dozen mayoral candidates in our upcoming civic election.  To pay heed of similar no-name brands (and not even a President’s or anyone else’s Choice) from another city would be asking too much, even despite Toronto thinking it the centre of all things.

I see your point but still, Toronto city councilors are elected to lead over 2.5 million people, yes Toronto has its own little "Canada" and dose not speak for the nation at all. From talking to local muslims here in the area it was more than Jones is a bad bad man,

The crowd was addressed by three mayoral candidates, in addition to provincial and federal politicians, who blasted preacher Terry Jones for threatening to torch the holy book.

Again if Federal and Provincial politicians not just mayor wannabes "blasted Jones" also blast the people who sent him death threats and blast the people who are threatening the lives of our citizens and the citizens of our allies.

Ontario immigration minister Dr. Eric Hoskins said his government also condemn the offensive act.
“The Qur’an is a holy book that is respected and provides guidance for millions,” Hoskins said. “We are committed to fighting ignorance and intolerance in Ontario.”

This to me is out of line from Dr Eric Hoskins, the Bible, Torah, Koran and Webster dictionary are not "holy" books, citizens are allowed to believe they are. Any Govt has no right to endorse any religion as holy and their book as some how elevated from every other book in the library.

Toronto mayoral candidate Joe Pantalone said he’s been a friend of the Muslim community for many years. “I am one of you,” Pantalone said. “If you vote for me I will be the first mayor whose first language is not English.  Mayoral hopeful Rocco Rossi said he is the son of immigrants and knows how community members feel. “If I am mayor it will show far the son of immigrants can rise,” Rossi said. “This is a country built by immigrant

Yes politicians will campaign, expect for this issue is a bigger picture of a fight between one world that wants freedom even the freedom to be a jacka** and another that likes the middle ages and wants to kill anyone out site their mainstream. A lot of people have died fighting in this struggle and its in appropriate for a politician  to blast a guy excising his freedom in a foreign country, and then use it as a elect me platform. Canada was founded by settlers, Mr Jones wants to burn a Koran, all Muslims are upset, Hey look 10,000 Muslims voters most are immigrants or the second generation of immigrants, hey look Im a son of a immigrant Jones is bad!! elect me for mayor???