Remembering 9-11 (merged anniversary thread)

[The Bread Guy]

I am sure there is an Info Ops campaign going on in theatre for how to mitigate it, possibly stating that we also condemn it and are just as offended.  Can't say for sure because I have been out of that chair for a year.

You KNOW the Taliban had to take a crack from their side (screen capture of statement attached as PDF)....

US invaders martyr 8 civilians as they protest burning of Holy Quran
Saturday, 11 September 2010 19:50 Zabihullah Mujahid

FARAH, Sep. 11 – US invaders shot and martyred 8 civilians protesting against the inhumane act of bringing Holy Quran by the US church in Florida, while protesters in Kabul city burned to government vehicles in protesting against Quran.

Alleged civilian casualties + Alleged outrage committed by puppets/infidels/terrorists/colonialists = Touchstones for a typical Taliban statement

And if there's one statement on the English web page, I'm guessing the Taliban Info-machine's spreading the word all sorts of other ways as well.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If nothing else, I am also happy to see that we have learned from our lessons in the past.  What we did in WW2 to Japanese Canadians was only marginally better than what the Germans did to Jewish people so we didn't have the moral high ground to claim.  No we didn't exterminate them all, but we still rounded them all up and put them in camps.

I've tried to stay clear of engaging some of your thoughts here, so as not to appear biased. I'll even commend you for the massive strides you attempt to be making in correcting your previous history. However, I see that every once in awhile you still hit the send button without proofreading or subjectively editing your own posts. This is a classic example.

It is also one of the most assinine and offensive statements I've read on these boards in quite some time.

Now that's only my opinion, and I'm not going to try discuss with you why. Let's just say I have way more on my side than you on yours. You're just going to have to reflect and figure it out for yourself, but if your lines between right and wrong are so minuscule that you figure what we did is only marginally above what they did I can understand why you have such a hard time relating to regular people and why your priorities are so skewed.

edit for spelling

 

[mariomike]

What we did in WW2 to Japanese Canadians was only marginally better than what the Germans did to Jewish people so we didn't have the moral high ground to claim. 

Canada did not starve millions of people to death, did not force their inmates to work under brutal conditions, and did not send them to gas chambers if they were "unfit" to work.

 

[Infanteer]

What we did in WW2 to Japanese Canadians was only marginally better than what the Germans did to Jewish people so we didn't have the moral high ground to claim.  No we didn't exterminate them all, but we still rounded them all up and put them in camps.

Huh?

You have quite a grasp on history if you are unable to differentiate between an internment camp and a death camp....

 

[Old Sweat]

I am going to refrain from joining to the mass dump-on, other than to say I am disappointed that the maturity and discernment you had been displaying went all to sh.t. I don't understand why you continually seem to have this urge to stick your thingee in a food processor set on puree.

 

[observor 69]

Continuing to refrain from making an ass of myself with some blurted out response.
Dam !

 

[57Chevy]

Two Afghan protesters killed as Qur'an tensions simmer

Word of the intention to burn the Qu’ran had already triggered outrage in Afghanistan and across the Muslim world.

President Barack Obama warned it could hurt the United States deeply abroad, endanger U.S. troops in Afghanistan and risk attacks in U.S. and European cities.
"DEATH TO AMERICA"
In Afghanistan, angry protesters chanting "Death to America" and "Death to Christians" before clashing with security forces in Logar, south of the capital.

The protesters threatened to attack foreign military bases. There are almost 150,000 foreign troops fighting a growing Taliban-led insurgency in Afghanistan, where violence is at its worst since the hardline Islamists were ousted.

"The governor must give us an assurance that the church is not going to burn the Qu’ran, otherwise we will attack foreign troop bases in our thousands," protester Mohammad Yahya said

article continues:  Qur'an tensions
                    (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)

 

[SeanNewman]

The Germans made mass decisions based on race and not individual guilt/innocence, and so did we.  If you want to call me immature, ignorant of history, or even retarded because I pointed that out, then that's quite alright.  I stated there was a difference because we did not kill them all, but we still violated individual human rights because of race.

There were three decisions made:
1. Do we think all people are guilty because they are the same race?
2. Do we contain them all just to be safe?
3. Do we kill them all just to be really safe?

We made 2/3 of the same decisions the Germans did.  Granted the last one is the "biggy", but it hardly puts us in a position to point fingers and act high and mighty because we "only" rounded up thousands of innocent people based on their race and it's a bit hypocritical.

As per the purpose of my original post, if people did not have the courage to stand up and admit that what we did was horribly wrong we would probably be rounding up Muslims right now and putting them in camps.

 

[PuckChaser]

I think you make a pretty good point once explained, but some people have an axe to grind against you and the direct Holocaust comparison was just fuel to the fire.

Back towards the original topic: Its really sad to see what just a threat of a Koran burning has done to help the Taliban IO campaign. We've just lost a whole lot of credibility, and our troops have done absolutely nothing to deserve it. Going to be a long, uphill battle to convince the general populace that nothing did happen, nor would we ever allow it to happen.

 

[Infanteer]

We made 2/3 of the same decisions the Germans did.  Granted the last one is the "biggy", but it hardly puts us in a position to point fingers and act high and mighty because we "only" rounded up thousands of innocent people based on their race and it's a bit hypocritical.

I see - genocide is a "biggy"; I guess we can leave that minor detail out so the your idea of moral equivalency holds water.  I don't, as the above poster mentioned, have any bone to pick with you but you do realize how ridiculous your flimsy comparison is sounding?

 

[vonGarvin]

The Germans made mass decisions based on race and not individual guilt/innocence, and so did we.  If you want to call me immature, ignorant of history, or even retarded because I pointed that out, then that's quite alright.  I stated there was a difference because we did not kill them all.

There were three decisions made:
1. Do we think all people are guilty because they are the same race?
2. Do we contain them all just to be safe?
3. Do we kill them all just to be really safe?

We made 2/3 of the same decisions the Germans did.  Granted the last one is the "biggy", but it hardly puts us in a position to point fingers and act high and mighty because we "only" rounded up thousands of innocent people based on their race and it's a bit hypocritical.

As per the purpose of my original post, if people did not have the courage to stand up and admit that what we did was horribly wrong we would probably be rounding up Muslims right now and putting them in camps.

Superficially the two "things" appear quite similar; however, you fail.

In Europe, anti-semitism was rampant, and there was no good reason for it.  "They" were just Jews, they owned all the businesses, they were in league with the Bolshevists, etc.  All that garbage.  It went from outright persecution and went from there.

For us, in late November 1941, Japanese Canadians were just another group of immigrants, along with the Chinese, Ukrainians and others.  Then, waking up on 8 December, Japan was suddenly an enemy, and looking around, we "realised" that there were hundreds (thousands?) of "enemy aliens" in Canada.  Having citizenship of Japan, they were citizens of an enemy state.  Yes, hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but we felt that these enemy aliens (along with Germans and Italians) had to be watched, whatever. 

So, question one: we didn't consider them guilty or innocent.  They were citizens of an enemy nation, ergo, they were the enemy.
Question 2: the Germans didn't lock up the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, etc, because they wanted to be safe.
Question 3: they didn't kill them to be safe.
So, none of the questions apply.  The apologists of history will want us to believe that we mistreated the "yellow" people, dropping the bomb on them and all, just because we are mean white people.  Yet "they" forget that we firebombed our cousins by the millions, because they were the enemy in a full-up and declared war. 
Were we right to do what we did?  Sure.  So, it's not hypocritical at all, because the situations were completely different.  We didn't make even 1/3 of the same decisions as the Germans.  What we did wasn't horribly wrong, or even midly wrong.  Given the same circumstances and some knowledge, I would advocate doing the same.  And given that the people who attacked us way back in 2001 were from a variety of nations, it is a false premise to assume that I would advocate rounding up Muslims.  I do advocate the use of nuclear weapons on known insurgent areas, but that's just me.  (And probably a good reason why I'm not the guy in charge of putting my finger on the button).

But I refuse to consider what we (as Canadians) did as wrong, given that Canada was at war with Japan, a formal war, and we took enemy aliens and interned them: we had no other choice. 

 

[Journeyman]

I think you make a pretty good point once explained......

I think TecViking used too many big words for this discussion. Let me try.

Using the Petamocto Logic Construct: *
There were three decisions made:
1. Do we carry weapons in Afghanistan?
2. Do we capture those who are not on our side?
3. Do we slice their throats and throw acid into the faces of their daughters?

Two out of three ain't bad.

If you agree with the Nazi/Canada argument, logically, you must also believe that we're pretty much the same as the Taliban.


* Not copyrighted, because no rational person would use it; you're welcome to it

 

[PuckChaser]

Maybe I didn't explain enough.... comparing our actions to the Germans/Nazis is overboard, but that doesn't diminish the fact that we interned people strictly based on race. Not as bad as Nazis, but definitely bad and I hope we're past that point in our socio-economic evolution so it never happens again in this country.

 

[SeanNewman]

Ahhh, my good friend Journeyman.  Living up to your reputation of waiting for others to disagree with me before adding on.

Techno,

Your core argument is flawed.  22,000 Japanese Canadians were interred.  14,000 of them were born in Canada.

On February 24, 1942 an Order-in-Council passed under the War Measures Act gave the Federal Government the power to intern all "persons of Japanese racial origin."

As per PuckChaser's comments, we have all made our positions known and we're all too stubborn to change our opinions on this matter so let's be mature enough to move on.

 

[vonGarvin]

Maybe I didn't explain enough.... comparing our actions to the Germans/Nazis is overboard, but that doesn't diminish the fact that we interned people strictly based on race. Not as bad as Nazis, but definitely bad and I hope we're past that point in our socio-economic evolution so it never happens again in this country.

Based on nationality, actually.  An enemy nation.  And we also interred Germans and Italians.  We also interred others who were deemed to be a danger to the security of the state, such as fascists.  So, it wasn't like one day we suddenly said "we don't like them japs, let's lock 'em up with them krauts and wops!". 

 

[57Chevy]

Back towards the original topic: Its really sad to see what just a threat of a Koran burning has done to help the Taliban IO campaign. We've just lost a whole lot of credibility, and our troops have done absolutely nothing to deserve it. Going to be a long, uphill battle to convince the general populace that nothing did happen, nor would we ever allow it to happen.

Well said.
I don't think that one individual like Rev Bookburning should be allowed to stir up such an international commotion
as he has already done.
It just seems totally against the idea of homeland security, and puts many peoples lives in danger.
What was he thinking ?  He should be arrested for outright ignorance and stupidity. My :2c:

Petamocto........You cannot even compare the two. May I suggest you read up on german concentration camps.
                        Pick one.........and I don't think it matters which one.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Back towards the original topic: Its really sad to see what just a threat of a Koran burning has done to help the Taliban IO campaign. We've just lost a whole lot of credibility, and our troops have done absolutely nothing to deserve it. Going to be a long, uphill battle to convince the general populace that nothing did happen, nor would we ever allow it to happen.

You'll never convince the general population of that. They're too hard wired.  It doesn't matter what we do, the automatic reaction is
Protests
Outrage
We're going to do violence!
DEATH TO THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM.

They know everyone else wants peace and use it as a threat everytime. Give it a few months, something else will come up and it'll be the same thing.
That upsets us! We're going to protest, we're outraged we're going to cause violence! 

My ex does the same thing. I have a great little girl and anytime my ex is upset over something real or trivial OUT come the big guns. I'm not going to let you see your daughter. Deep down I know she can't but I don't like the drama or headache so I give in everytime because I just want to see my daughter. She knows that and knows the threats work so why stop. I cancel picking my daughter up for the day because I have Pneumonia and I'm a bad parent ignoring my daughter and she might rethink the visiting arrangements blah blah blah.  :

These guys are the same way. They know that anytime they feel like getting upset over something they just rattle their sabres and the west falls over itself trying to appease them. When does it stop?  When they don't want us to vote anymore and threaten to start riots if a certain political party is allowed to be voted for?

Sorry for going off on a rant. I'm just saying nothing we do will work. Their going to use the same threats over anything they feel like.  The members of Islam who have their heads screwed on straight already understand peace and tolerance.  For the hundreds of thousands of others that don't there's just no changing their mind. Death to those who insult Islam.

 

[SeanNewman]

But when we say "they" (their general population), are we potentially not just talking about a small percentage of them who are protesting?

They see media coverage of a small percentage of us burning Qurans and assume it's all of us, and we see a small percentage of them protesting and chanting death to anyone who insults Islam, and before you know it it's their 1 billion vs our 1 billion.

 

[vonGarvin]

They're going to use the same threats over anything they feel like.

Very good point.  No matter the catalyst, there are those who will incite voilence using anything as an excuse, I suppose.  But, in the end, all we have to do is train up the ANA and ANP, etc, such that they are at least functionally retarded, and then leave.  But I would also hang a Sword of Damocles over their heads as a nation, if I were in charge.  But I'm not. And I'm not even running for office, so, that point of mine is moot.

 

[Rifleman62]

1. Could have been an internee, but went to Japan just before the war:

Kanao Inouye (1916-August 27, 1947) was a Canadian citizen convicted of treason for his actions during World War II. Known as the "Kamloops Kid", he served as an interpreter and prison camp guard for the Japanese Army and military police.

A Nisei (second-generation Japanese-Canadian), Kanao Inouye was born to immigrant parents in Kamloops, British Columbia. His father, Tadashi Inouye, had emigrated to British Columbia from Tokyo, and had been a decorated Canadian soldier during World War I.[1] Although his father died in 1926, Inouye at his first trial described his life in Canada as happy. His family nevertheless maintained close ties to Japan, where his grandfather, Chotahara Inouye, was a Member of Parliament and the House of Peers.[1] After he graduated from Vancouver Technical School, Inouye's family urged him to go to Japan to continue his education. He did so in 1938 and was still there when World War II began.

In 1942, Inouye was conscripted into the Imperial Japanese Army as an interpreter. Made a sergeant, he was assigned to Sham Shui Po prison camp in Hong Kong, which housed Canadian prisoners of war from the Hong Kong Garrison. Inouye was noted for his unusual brutality. He beat prisoners at random, claiming it was in retaliation for discrimination he had received in Canada. In contrast to his later trial testimony about his childhood, he allegedly told them: “When I was in Canada I took all kinds abuse. ... They called me a little yellow *******. Now where is your so-called superiority, you dirty scum?”

Inouye was discharged from the army the following year, but in 1944 he was conscripted as an interpreter for the notorious Kempeitai military police in Hong Kong. Trial testimony stated he had been an enthusiastic torturer of suspected spies and traitors. Former POWs would later testify that Inouye was responsible for the torture and death of at least 8 Canadian POWs.

After the Japanese capitulation in August 1945, Inouye was arrested in Kowloon and tried for war crimes by a military tribunal. He was convicted and was sentenced to death. However, the verdict was overturned on appeal, since as a Canadian citizen, he could not be prosecuted for war crimes committed by an enemy army.

In April 1947, Inouye was tried on the criminal charge of treason. He was again found guilty, and on August 27, 1947, he was executed by hanging at Hong Kong's Stanley Prison. His last word was "Banzai!"

2. Japanese submarine operations

Several ships were torpedoed within sight of West Coast cities such as Los Angeles and Santa Monica. During 1941 and 1942, more than 10 Japanese submarines operated in the West Coast. They attacked American, Canadian and Mexican ships, successfully sinking 10 vessels.

Bombardment of Estevan Point lighthouse

On June 20, 1942, the Japanese submarine I-26, under the command of Yokota Minoru,fired 25-30 rounds of 5.5" shells at the Estevan Point lighthouse on Vancouver Island in British Columbia, but failed to hit its target.This marked the first enemy shelling of Canadian soil since the War of 1812. Though no casualties were reported, the subsequent decision to turn off the lights of outer stations was disastrous for shipping activity.

3. Japan bombs Saskatchewan

On Jan. 12, 1945, 15-year old Ralph Melle of Regina witnessed the Japanese bombing of Saskatchewan. "We stepped on one… it was covered up but it never went off," he remembers in this clip. The only casualty was a fence. The bombs were part of a bizarre initiative carried out by the Japanese during the Second World War. From 1944 to 1945, Japan's Special Balloon Regiment launched more than 9,000 balloons filled with bombs.

The balloon bombs were targeted at the Pacific Northwest of North America to start forest fires as well as divert resources and create public panic. Some made it far further east.

• Balloon bombs were 10 metres in diameter and held about 540 cubic metres of hydrogen.
• Of the 9,000 balloon bombs that were launched from Japan, only 300 made it to North America. The reason for the poor success rate was the weak antifreeze used in the balloons, which failed to prevent the batteries from freezing.
• Balloon bombs were discovered as far as Alaska and Texas as well as in Mexico and Canada.
• The sole lethal attack of the balloon bombs took place in May 1945. A minister's wife and five children, aged 11 to 14, were killed when bombs exploded in the woods in Oregon.
• Fewer than 100 balloon bombs landed on Canada. British Columbia had the second-largest number of balloon bombs dropped in North America. The largest number of bombs fell in Oregon.
• In Canada, balloon bombs were discovered in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, the Northwest Territories and the Yukon.
• The last balloon bomb was launched in April 1945.
• In 1955, the last known lethal balloon was discovered in Alaska.
• Although the bombs caused little damage, officials in North America worried about the bombs' potential psychological effect on the public. The Canadian and U.S. governments asked the media to not publish balloon bomb incidents. As a result, the Japanese only learned of one bomb reaching Wyoming, landing and failing to explode. The balloon bombs were dubbed a failure and the Japanese quickly abandoned the campaign after six months.


It was war. Ask people, even those living in Canada, it was "dark days". The war news was more often very bad up until late 1943 or early 1944.

Don't think it won't happen again.