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Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

jollyjacktar said:
The only time that I did feel put upon was my Graduation from PLQ.  We were informed that regardless of what belief we held, we would all as one bow our heads in prayer. 

OK, I find that weird.

Why the heck would anyone have to pray during a PLQ grad parade, unless it was for cold beer at the end? In my short 30 or so years of military service I have never been required to pray during a parade of any kind. Even Remembrance Day parades are set up so there's a two minute silence... no praying required if you don't want to.

I say again, that's just weird...
 
I believe that someone who decides to join the forces to defend their country against threats makes them a brave person worthy of respect, but the fact that people are being forced to believe in something that goes against their personal morales and own beliefs is wrong and sounds fascist, beliefs should not be forced upon anyone. We should respect eachother based on the things they do not what they believe. I am agnostic, i don't belittle or question others in their beliefs so i shouldn't be ridiculed as well.
 
If I may, he probably feels it to be hypocritical because it would appear to a casual observer that he is participating in the prayer by the action of bowing the head.

In all honesty, I am sympathetic.  I think I would have felt awkward if there was a minister or chaplain of a religion I did not believe in offering a prayer to his deity(ies) and I was required by drill to remove my headress and bow my head.

It's been discussed here on a variety of other threads with no success at resolution.

For my two kopecks, it comes down to an issue of "majority practice".  WRT drill, it either should be done by all, or done by none.  That being said, banning padre's and prayers during commemorative portions of services (as some have previously suggested) would be a HUGE dis-service to those who find comfort in them.

Instead of beating a dead horse, let's agree to disagree, and until the statistics say that atheists, or a religious tradition other than RC or Protestant, become prevalent in the CF, things will pretty much stay the way they are.

If it helps, there are religious folks out there that sympathize with the discomfort felt by many atheists.
 
2 CDO, even though I am a heathen bastard, I do have some honour and standards of conduct. 

An Uncle whom I loved like my Father and I respected very much was a life long Mason.  He was the last of the family line to carry on the tradition, and was also a bachelor with no one other than my self who could carry it on.  One is not asked to be a Mason, one has to ask to join a Lodge.  I knew that he deeply wanted me to ask and carry it on, and it would have been very beneficial to me both professionally and personally to do so, I did not.  I did not because one of the major pillars is to have a belief in a higher power.  I do not have such a belief.  My respect for him and his Lodge, and my honesty forbade me to lie and pretend.  The same goes for my bowing my head in prayer.  I do not pray, and cannot pretend that I am doing so as it is dishonest and I feel improper.  I do remove my head dress with everyone else as it is part of the drill and ceremony.  But I keep my head and eyes firmly to the front, while the remainder pray. 


Daft, some of the Old Men I have served under had a religious bent in them and took every opportunity to have the Padre attend functions and parades.  It is their ship, their show and they can do what they please. 

At the Graduation ceremonies for the PLQ here in Halifax they have a Padre in attendance.  The Naval Hymn is played, and prayers are made.  We were told by DS that we would all bow our heads even if we were like myself, no exception.  It is, afterall a show and you would not want the show to be spoiled by little johnny doing something the other kids are not.

Xena, you are overall correct.  However I do not feel awkward while they offer their prayers.  To me it's BS, but to those who need it, it is a huge comfort.  Let them have it and be comforted by it.  What got my nose out of joint was being required to go against my standards of conduct in those matters.  Praying or appearing to pray.
 
jollyjacktar - For myself, I tend to view it as a sign of respect for my comrades.  If they feel that they are communing with their God and that that requires removing their head dress and lowering their eyes then I do so as well while I'm with them.  Same is true at memorials.  If you believe in no afterlife why salute the dead, if not for the sake of the living?  If you do believe then it's a sign of respect for those that have gone before and still exist somewhere.  If you don't, then what is it?

Or here's another way to think of it.

If I went to meet the parents of a friend from Japanese heritage, and he bowed when greeting his parents, I would also follow suit.  Wouldn't you?

"When in Rome...."
 
Captain Coffee said:
jollyjacktar - For myself, I tend to view it as a sign of respect for my comrades.  If they feel that they are communing with their God and that that requires removing their head dress and lowering their eyes then I do so as well while I'm with them.  Same is true at memorials.  If you believe in no afterlife why salute the dead, if not for the sake of the living?  If you do believe then it's a sign of respect for those that have gone before and still exist somewhere.  If you don't, then what is it?

Or here's another way to think of it.

If I went to meet the parents of a friend from Japanese heritage, and he bowed when greeting his parents, I would also follow suit.  Wouldn't you?

"When in Rome...."


Very nicely put  Captain Coffee. If there is nothing else that could or can be said for Religion, is that it does  at times provide "HOPE" whether real, false or what ever.

I imagine a good example of that is to ask any Chaplain, Padre, Medic or Comrade who has held in his arms a Dying or Wounded Comrade.

I think life would be pretty blank without it (Hope). Who are you going to ask for it, Lady Luck, Yourself or Fate.. well that seems like some kind of Belief of sorts.

I can assure you I'm the Biggest nonbeliever out there. But I would also be the Biggest Liar out there if I didn't admit, that more than often, I haven't said God or Jesus please don,t let this be this or that. I wonder why I do that.


 
Captain Coffee said:
jollyjacktar - For myself, I tend to view it as a sign of respect for my comrades.  If they feel that they are communing with their God and that that requires removing their head dress and lowering their eyes then I do so as well while I'm with them.  Same is true at memorials.  If you believe in no afterlife why salute the dead, if not for the sake of the living?  If you do believe then it's a sign of respect for those that have gone before and still exist somewhere.  If you don't, then what is it?

Or here's another way to think of it.

If I went to meet the parents of a friend from Japanese heritage, and he bowed when greeting his parents, I would also follow suit.  Wouldn't you?

"When in Rome...."

Capt. Coffee, I respect your views however I cannot in good conscience act in such a manner anymore.  I have found myself more and more of these years past feeling my atheist beliefs becoming stronger.  While I won't disrespect my comrades who are religious by having a tourets moment and shout out "It's all bullshit" or the like, I also won't disrespect them by putting on a false front and pretend in such a manner.  I am sure that you have heard "to thine own's self be true".  (yeah, I know it comes from the bible as I recall but it does fit)

As for showing manners I may also have also bowed in the same situation.  However, these customs do also have their own standards of how they are to be performed and can be screwed up.  It may be more polite to offer greetings as per your own customs correctly than to make offence by attempting to patronize and messing up. 


Fast Eddy - I think it comes from being raised and living in a Christian society if you are from here originally.  I was raised ACC.  Even though I am now atheistic, I do take the lord's name in vain as any english speaker might be tempted to even though I do not believe.
 
jollyjacktar said:
I am sure that you have heard "to thine own's self be true".  (yeah, I know it comes from the bible as I recall but it does fit)

Actually, it's Shakespeare so you can stop worrying.  ;)
 
PMedMoe said:
Actually, it's Shakespeare so you can stop worrying.  ;)

Phew!!  Thanks, PMedMoe.  Would hate to be batting for the other side there.  I was typing fast this am, and have aluminium pot syndrome or oldtimers, my memory is shot out.  Hamlet, is it not?  At least I think I know where my coat is and so far I have not found lemons all over the shop. 
 
jollyjacktar said:
As for showing manners I may also have also bowed in the same situation.  However, these customs do also have their own standards of how they are to be performed and can be screwed up.  It may be more polite to offer greetings as per your own customs correctly than to make offence by attempting to patronize and messing up. 

That is a good point.

And PMedMoe is right, Shaespeare, Hamlet to be specific.  Act 1 Scene 3.  lol  I just happened to have read it last week on vacation.  ;D
 
Big difference between religion in the Canadian Forces and religion in the US in terms of it being pushed on soldiers.
 
I am going to try and make this clear THAT I AM NOT! here to speak ill of anyone beliefs , i respect every ones rights to have a religion, a belief and i am not here to challenge those beliefs . I am just asking for the right to my beliefs, and the right not to practice the beliefs of others. being a strong believing atheist i have found that i am quite the minority in the Canadian forces and feel that my religious rights are not taken seriously due to this fact.
In the QR&O`s its states that i will not be subjected to religious proceedings against my will but i find myself time and time again in ranks with my beret off while a padre prays to a god and a belief system that is not my own and i feel that it infringes on my rights as a Canadian citizen and a soldier. the QR&O`s also states that i must take part in religious ceremonies on remembrance day and a handful of other days.

Has anyone come across the same problem? or just have an honest opinion on the matter?

Again i have full respect on everyone and their religious rights

 
Much as some gentiles will wear a yalmulke when in Jerusalem, or some non-muslim women will wear headcoverings in a Muslim Nation (eg: visiting politicians), I see it as a sign of respect. 


And, "remove headdress" is a lawful command.  Nobody is forcing you to pray, and it's not all about you. 

If you feel that this is an infringement of your human rights, all I can say is this:

 
I just have to ask: are you going to petition to have Christmas removed as a stat holiday, because it infringes upon your human rights?


Just sayin....
 
RyanC said:
I am going to try and make this clear THAT I AM NOT! here to speak ill of anyone beliefs , i respect every ones rights to have a religion, a belief and i am not here to challenge those beliefs . I am just asking for the right to my beliefs, and the right not to practice the beliefs of others. being a strong believing atheist i have found that i am quite the minority in the Canadian forces and feel that my religious rights are not taken seriously due to this fact.
In the QR&O`s its states that i will not be subjected to religious proceedings against my will but i find myself time and time again in ranks with my beret off while a padre prays to a god and a belief system that is not my own and i feel that it infringes on my rights as a Canadian citizen and a soldier. the QR&O`s also states that i must take part in religious ceremonies on remembrance day and a handful of other days.

Has anyone come across the same problem? or just have an honest opinion on the matter?

Again i have full respect on everyone and their religious rights

I hope that with time, you'll learn to build a bridge and get over it.

It's a standing social custom, which in no way infringes on your religious beliefs. It's just a matter of being polite. For the same reason, you'll remove your shoes upon entering a mosque, you salute comissioned officers, hold the door for other people, and say thank you on receiving somthing. Standing social customs. If you don't, you're being rude and look like an ass. Regardless of your own personal religious beliefs, you've also got to respect beliefs of others.

 
There are some who have a committed political belief in one national party or another, yet they still serve when another party is running the Government and "signing" their paychecks, without feeling it requires them to change their political outlook.

There are some members who would happily see Canada separate its politics and related activities from the monarchy, yet they still present arms when a Royal Salute is ordered without perceiving themselves to become monarchists by doing so.

Some people pray when a Chaplain says his words at a ceremony, others go through the motions without thinking it affects their choice of atheism (or that it changes them somehow if they follow a different religion).

If some of your fellow soldiers find comfort in the religious aspects of such a ceremony, is it  bad thing to go through the motions with them?

If you a truly an atheist I would expect that it shouldn't bother you at all, since for you it has no more meaning than any other parade movement.
 
Technoviking said:
And, "remove headdress" is a lawful command.
Apparently not always, according to the CF's Court Martial Appeals Court.

Lieutenant (Navy) G.D. Scott v. The Queen
On 22 November 2004, the CMAC allowed the appeal of Lieutenant
(Navy) (Lt (N)) G.D. Scott who had been convicted at court martial
of disobedience of a lawful command contrary to section 83 of the
National Defence Act. Lt (N) Scott had been given a severe reprimand
and a fine of $3,000.00.

The facts in this case were not in dispute. Lt (N) Scott was ordered
to attend a Division’s parade at Canadian Forces Base Esquimalt on
November 28, 2002. During the parade, the chaplain of the unit
pronounced a short prayer that was followed by the playing of the
naval hymn. Prior to the prayer, as was tradition, the parade was
given the order to “remove headdress.” Lt (N) Scott did not remove
his headdress. At trial, Lt (N) Scott said that he did not comply
with the order because he felt that his Charter right to freedom
of religion had been violated by his enforced participation in a
religious ceremony for which he did not believe.


The trial judge’s verdict of guilty was predicated on the trial judge’s
finding that the order to remove headdress was a lawful command.

The CMAC found that the trial judge’s findings were unreasonable
and were not supportable by the evidence. The CMAC found that it
was clear that the order to remove headdress and the prayer that
followed had religious connotations. All Canadian Forces members
present had to at least appear to participate in the sentiments
expressed. The court mentioned, however, that in some cases,
military exigency might serve to justify the giving of orders that
may result in Charter breaches. This was not such a case. The
CMAC found that Lt (N) Scott’s disobedience was justified as
the order breached his Charter right to freedom of religion.
 
See "CMAC Decisions: Lieutenant (Navy) G.D. Scott v. The Queen," Sixth Annual Report of the Judge Advocate General on the Administration of Military Justice in the Canadian Forces, 2005, p. 43
http://www.forces.gc.ca/jag/publications/office-cabinet/AnnRep-RappAnn2005-eng.pdf

But then again, I just found out yesterday that the 'Regimental March' of the Padres is no longer "Onward Christian Soldiers," but is now "Ode to Joy" -- the times are a'changin'


Fortunately, my lack of religion saves me from all this turmoil  ;)
 
RyanC said:
I am going to try and make this clear THAT I AM NOT! here to speak ill of anyone beliefs , i respect every ones rights to have a religion, a belief and i am not here to challenge those beliefs . I am just asking for the right to my beliefs, and the right not to practice the beliefs of others. being a strong believing atheist i have found that i am quite the minority in the Canadian forces and feel that my religious rights are not taken seriously due to this fact.
In the QR&O`s its states that i will not be subjected to religious proceedings against my will but i find myself time and time again in ranks with my beret off while a padre prays to a god and a belief system that is not my own and i feel that it infringes on my rights as a Canadian citizen and a soldier. the QR&O`s also states that i must take part in religious ceremonies on remembrance day and a handful of other days.

Has anyone come across the same problem? or just have an honest opinion on the matter?

Again i have full respect on everyone and their religious rights
Everybody else has covered your other questions well enough. But since when did Remembrance Day become a religious ceremony?
 
Well, I guess the CMAC has spoken.  Leave you hats on.

And leave your shoes on when you enter that mosque.  We wouldn't want your precious little human rights violated now, would we?


::)


 
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