Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[tonykeene]

Great idea! A few years ago I was invited to my local mosque (it's out in the countryside near where I live) to represent the veterans' group I belonged to at a ceremony to honour victims of a mass shooting. It was indeed an honour to go there, wearing my beret and medals, take off my shoes at the door and stand alongside people from all over my community. And of course I've attended many weddings, funerals etc in churches and synagoues. Not a problem, because these were about individual people, and their beliefs..
What I am talking about is the use of prayer or religion at events that are not supposed to be religious such as the presentation of Colours, or a dinner. Everyone should be included, and if blessings etc are offered in a religious sense, then that automatically excludes those of us who are not religious. We are, in effect being told that we are secondary. We don't belong in the first rank.
Using Colours as an example, we are told they exemplify the Regiment. That means everyone in the Regiment, not just those who believe in God. The ceremony should not only include this, it should stress it. Cohesion is, of course, the whole point.
In my last year of service I saw three soldiers literally ejected from a parade. The CO told them to fall out, pointed at the door, and they were required to walk away from their Colours, their unit, their fellow soldiers, simply because, as Canadians, they chose not to pray under military authority. They weren't just ejected from the parade, they were marched out of the building. It was an appalling thing to watch.
Does that create unit cohesion? I trust such things are not being done anymore.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I do Crossfit....

 

[Remius]

Funerals are personal , like weddings. We observe a person's passing in terms of his or her own faith. This has nothing to do with ministry; we need chaplains to do that. What I object to is the use of religion to add pomp and circumstance to an event that really has no religious significance. And it's not about Christianity; it only seems that way because, essentially, it is Christian prayer, or the semblance of it, that is used. I've never seen a parade ordered to its knees for Muslim prayer. I'm sure if it were, I certainly would no longer be the only one objecting.

I’ve never seen a parade ordered to it’s knees at all. In 25 years.

 

[Remius]

Great idea! A few years ago I was invited to my local mosque (it's out in the countryside near where I live) to represent the veterans' group I belonged to at a ceremony to honour victims of a mass shooting. It was indeed an honour to go there, wearing my beret and medals, take off my shoes at the door and stand alongside people from all over my community. And of course I've attended many weddings, funerals etc in churches and synagoues. Not a problem, because these were about individual people, and their beliefs..
What I am talking about is the use of prayer or religion at events that are not supposed to be religious such as the presentation of Colours, or a dinner. Everyone should be included, and if blessings etc are offered in a religious sense, then that automatically excludes those of us who are not religious. We are, in effect being told that we are secondary. We don't belong in the first rank.
Using Colours as an example, we are told they exemplify the Regiment. That means everyone in the Regiment, not just those who believe in God. The ceremony should not only include this, it should stress it. Cohesion is, of course, the whole point.
In my last year of service I saw three soldiers literally ejected from a parade. The CO told them to fall out, pointed at the door, and they were required to walk away from their Colours, their unit, their fellow soldiers, simply because, as Canadians, they chose not to pray under military authority. They weren't just ejected from the parade, they were marched out of the building. It was an appalling thing to watch.
Does that create unit cohesion? I trust such things are not being done anymore.

I have not nor have I ever seen anything like that. I’ve also never had any complaints about anything like that either. Most were fine with whatever. I’m Roman Catholic. A good chunk of those things (which are mostly relegated to association functions) in my unit were Protestant in nature. I never took issue with it. A lot of highland regiments have st Andrew’s crosses in their cap badges. I never saw or heard anyone complain.

You are using whatever anecdotal stories you have from your past to start a fight over something that really does not exist CAF wide. It may exist in silos in some places but it certainly isn’t as widespread as you think.

Also you are not using the right definition of what Colours represent. Consecration of colours is not a religious ceremony. It’s a military one. Does it have religious overtones? I suppose. But it’s ceremonial. YOU are not being subjected to any religious indoctrination, no one is converting you, no one is saying you are converting or forcing you to believe anything. Consecration serves to reinforce the values of honour and loyalty to crown and country. Not God or gods or whatever.

There are plenty of traditions that stem from religion. Some people observe them without being religious.

To sum up though, consecration of colours and remembrance observances ARE NOT ABOUT YOU.

 

[daftandbarmy]

In my last year of service I saw three soldiers literally ejected from a parade. The CO told them to fall out, pointed at the door, and they were required to walk away from their Colours, their unit, their fellow soldiers, simply because, as Canadians, they chose not to pray under military authority. They weren't just ejected from the parade, they were marched out of the building. It was an appalling thing to watch.
Does that create unit cohesion? I trust such things are not being done anymore.

 

[tonykeene]

I think it's time for me to retire from this conversation. Throughout I trust I have maintained a reasonable and courteous manner of discussion. I have not attacked anyone personally, and I never called anyone "dude" or any other name.
However, if that is the way things are discussed these days, then an old guy like me should bow out with as much grace as possible.
May you all stay safe and well.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think it's time for me to retire from this conversation. Throughout I trust I have maintained a reasonable and courteous manner of discussion. I have not attacked anyone personally, and I never called anyone "dude" or any other name.
However, if that is the way things are discussed these days, then an old guy like me should bow out with as much grace as possible.
May you all stay safe and well.

If you're referring to one of my favourite 'memes of outrage' above, I'm just pissed to hear that my/ any Army would do that to three innocent soldiers.

That's all.

 

[lenaitch]

Everyone should be included, and if blessings etc are offered in a religious sense, then that automatically excludes those of us who are not religious. We are, in effect being told that we are secondary. We don't belong in the first rank.

This is from the school of 'if it doesn't speak directly to me, then it offends me', which is a refuge for many these days, inside and outside of faith discussions.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I think it's time for me to retire from this conversation. Throughout I trust I have maintained a reasonable and courteous manner of discussion. I have not attacked anyone personally, and I never called anyone "dude" or any other name.
However, if that is the way things are discussed these days, then an old guy like me should bow out with as much grace as possible.
May you all stay safe and well.

Then why, may I ask, did you necro-respond yesterday to you own post, in a nearly dead thread?

I can only surmise, Tony, that you enjoy the drama.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Game over, end of story. Get used to it.

I think it's time for me to retire from this conversation. Throughout I trust I have maintained a reasonable and courteous manner of discussion.

Really? Well this thread seems to be your ball, take it home if you wish.

 

[Kilted]

I’ve never seen a parade ordered to it’s knees at all. In 25 years.

The only story that comes to mind with this was at a Church Parade with my allied unit in the United Kingdom. Being an Anglican service there was a time when the majority of those in attendance knelt. Being a Presbyterian I didn't, no one cared other than the Roman Catholic who was beside me who told me that I was supposed to be kneeling. Granted that is more a difference between customs than actual belief. Although, if it wasn't for the military I would probably never have gotten the opportunity to attend an Anglican service. I'm pretty sure that every time I have been in an Anglican Church I have been in uniform, with the exception of times when I have gone places as a tourist, Westminister Abbey for example.

 

[brihard]

I think it's time for me to retire from this conversation. Throughout I trust I have maintained a reasonable and courteous manner of discussion. I have not attacked anyone personally, and I never called anyone "dude" or any other name.
However, if that is the way things are discussed these days, then an old guy like me should bow out with as much grace as possible.
May you all stay safe and well.

“Dude” is not calling you a name, nor have there been any personal attacks. In any case, you do you- but when you come out of nowhere to revive a dormant thread with a rant that’s at least fifteen years dated, yeah, there will be some pushback from those with more recent CAF time.

Anyway, have a good one.

 

[Good2Golf]

Religious oppression in the CAF may have resulted in a few being drummed out of the mob in double quick-time, but things really went downhill for the CAF when we stopped wearing ascots with work dress…

 

[daftandbarmy]

Religious oppression in the CAF may have resulted in a few being drummed out of the mob in double quick-time, but things really went downhill for the CAF when we stopped wearing ascots with work dress…


View attachment 66699

 

[FJAG]

Okay, I've stayed out of this but tonykeene has a point here and most of you are defending ceremonies that stem from a religious basis on the grounds that they are traditional military activities.

That's really not the issue. The issue is inclusion and exclusion - either overtly or covertly/systemically.

Let's take the example the consecrating of colours. Consecration is a religious act. From the Canadian Oxford:

1. make or declare sacred; dedicate formally to a religious or divine or purpose

This from the Heritage site:

1. New Colours shall not be granted the dignity of Colours until consecration has taken place, nor shall they be carried on parade until they have been consecrated. Once Colours have been consecrated and presented, they shall be accorded the highest honours at all times and treated with great respect and care.

Effectively the routine is to have a Queen's representative (either the GG or a provincial LG) "present" the colours which denotes their coming from the crown and then having a padre "consecrate" them thus making them sacred.

We can hum and haw all we want about tradition, but effectively for anyone serving in a regiment, their colours are not sacred until made so in a religious rite. The tradition this comes from goes back to times where folks were mostly devout and almost exclusively belonged to the same religion (albeit different branches of Christianity). The time was that anyone who wasn't a Christian was in such a minority that they had no choice but to buckle under (and yes, I had to kneel on occasion at church parades). I don't have proof but my guess is that in any given unit there are fewer practicing Christians than there are atheists, or those who practice no religion or those who practice a different religion.

We certainly wouldn't ask a Sheik soldier to remove headdress, but just as an example the simple fact that we have a unit remove headdress and lower their heads for an interdenominational prayer, is having them stand out at being "different" for a religious ceremony that doesn't fall under their practice. The same for the non religious folks. Why demand a practice that has absolutely no meaning to them.

The point about respecting other people's religion is quite valid. I've been to a Jewish synagogue and behaved according to their traditions. I did it voluntarily and that's the point - voluntarily. I even consider a ramp ceremony to be an affair that honours the individual fallen warrior and which, quite rightly, ought to be a service of whatever faith the individual held as important. I see it no different then attending a Shinto wedding even if my attendance may not be fully voluntary.

However, when a tradition is brought up during a general military event that is religious in fact or based on a religious tradition, regardless of what faith it comes from, it makes everyone a captive. It doesn't matter whether it is a prayer made at the beginning of a meeting, or the consecration of colours or even a government organized remembrance day ceremony. If it contains overtones of a specific or any religion, its not proper. I, for one, do not have a problem with padres at these events giving a speech on the value of human life but I can understand where there are some who do object.

The point is that times have changed and our society has changed. The word "tradition" as a defence to a government practice that forces people to attend and even participate in practices that are effectively religious in nature is no longer appropriate regardless of how imbedded into our military culture.



ps.

Religious oppression in the CAF may have resulted in a few being drummed out of the mob in double quick-time, but things really went downhill for the CAF when we stopped wearing ascots with work dress…

Like my old Robin Hood combat hat, I also still have my "combat" gunner dickie (go ahead D&B - make your little joke but that's what they were called)

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Why demand a practice that has absolutely no meaning to them.

Like saluting an Officer? Maybe I can object to the commissioning scroll requirements since they come from the Crown?

Wait, everyone salutes everyone, so no one feels "non-included".

But to answer your question,
It's called 'respect'....something I dearly wish most of my fellow atheists had.

 

[FJAG]

Like saluting an Officer? Maybe I can object to the commissioning scroll requirements since they come from the Crown?

But to answer your question,
It's called 'respect'....something I dearly wish most of my fellow atheists had.

That's deflection. Saluting has no religious connotation to it.

And you are evading the issue. The "no meaning to them" clearly refers to a religious bias inculcated into a military tradition, not every tradition.

And within context, I can "respect" an individual practicing his religion. I do not have to tolerate a state foisted religious practice on me. None of us should whether we are atheists or those practicing a different religion.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Like my old Robin Hood combat hat, I also still have my "combat" gunner dickie (go ahead D&B - make your little joke but that's what they were called)

I would never joke about such a serious subject. Much

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Wasn't your scroll "commissioned"' by the head of the Church of England?

 

[FJAG]

Wasn't your scroll "commissioned"' by the head of the Church of England?

Nope by the sovereign of Canada. Her secondary duties are of no interest to me. Neither is the basis of her divine right to rule.

Think about the broad concepts rather than trying to find loopholes in a system riddled with them.