Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[BeyondTheNow]

Atheism is making a god out of not having a god.  It is still a religious conviction.  So for those who figure that no one should be compelled to attend a religious service great.  Just don't tell those who wish to that they can't.  As for religious parades they fall under the category of tradition: the same tradition history that requires officers to wear swords and requires little bits of rope to be attached to the sleeve and so on.  Tradition is a good thing and having a commanding officer who belittles tradition is bad; particularly when dealing with reserve formations who are often (no always) anchored to a community and cling to the community's ideals.  This commanding officer is demonstrating that he knows absolutely nothing about leadership.  imho

Bingo.

And what you outlined is happening almost verbatim. At least 1 25+ year serving mbr of the unit wants to attend the church service that up until now the unit has paraded to every year. The mbr is now being told that they're forbidden to attend. A couple of honouraries have voiced their confusion and displeasure with the situation, and word is now getting out to community members who frequent the occasion(s) also. This is becoming nothing but another bad PR run for CAF. As well, some are of the belief that the unit itself made this decision, so thus begins the damage control... 

 

[ModlrMike]

Atheism = I don't believe, but it's fine if you do.

Antitheism = I don't believe, and it's wrong if you do.

 

[AbdullahD]

I see where you're going with that (I think). I'm an atheist. I'm not a fan of the church being so closely associated with the military and parades and ceremonies but I'm desensitized to it.
Would going to a mosque bother me? Yup it definitely would - which is probably pretty hypocritical of me if I'm being honest.

But also being honest , and without trying to go down a rabbit hole too much, I think a church is more tolerant than a mosque when it comes to observing rules. I've seen sikh's wearing turbans and if I remember correctly jewish people wearing kippah's at church and no one made a big deal about it.

Forget about taking shoes off, would a female soldier have to enter a mosque through a side door and cover their head like the 3 female MP's who accompanied the prime minister on his visit to a mosque have to do?

I feel like churches have become pretty open to other religions and atheists alike. I'm not so sure the same can be said for mosques yet. (of course maybe I'm wrong)

I do see your point though and agree. I'd be fine with never stepping foot in a church again.


It makes me wonder whats next on this road.
Should we ban kilts because it's insensitive to make people from different cultures adopt Scottish customs?
Should we ban wearing medals because it makes CAF members without any medals feel inadequate in their DEU's?
Should we ban DEU's themselves because making a CAF member pick between male and female DEU's could cause gender identity stress (or something to that effect?) for members who identify as neither?

You are.. not wrong. Sadly. Doesn't make it right, logical or mature.

But you are not wrong, far to many mosques are backwards in regards to respect between the sexes. But not all.. just disproportionately more Mosques, sadly.

Now having said that, all the mosques that I have been too, have been pretty accepting of other religions as long as an issue was not being made of it. So I would not foresee a huge issue with CF members doing anything at a Mosque... heck most likely our esteemed Ladies would be ok as well to stay with the CF men.. but... yeah... (having said that I have seen a Pastor come, accidentally make the wrong statement and hahaha lol yeah... good times lol)

But again this is Islamic culture not the religion.

This road has no end, because to many Canadians are.. what is it called? Virtue signalling? Instead of maturing and respecting other religions, cultures, ideologies and political convictions.. they feel the need to force everyone into a bland version of Canada.. were everyone acts how certain groups of people demand they act.

I am upset about this because the CF was to me, a bastion against this idiotic onslaught. In a way... what happened to being able to respect something without following or believing in it?

I want my kids to grow up respecting other beliefs. Hell, if a Christian padre wants to come to my town to talk (most likely only my kids) about the importance of remembrance day and the importance of the CF members christian convictions, I would support it! As long as the intent was not conversion, but education.

I'm pissed, I know I am rambling, but this is BS. I am just sick and tired of it. This is just going to lead to more opportunities for those to stage their protests to enforce their beliefs upon the Canadian Forces. No one should be "forced" to accept another religion to be in the CF, but if you are being forced to show respect to another religion or honor it or remember it.. who the heck cared?

Remove head dress in a Church, Shoes in a Mosque. What's the big deal? Wouldn't it help make people see the CF as friends and possibly help with talented recruitment? My aunty is a strong babtist lady and before every meal she says a prayer, I. Join. Her. With it. Holding hands, saying amen etc. Respecting another belief, does not take you out of your own. Maybe don't say amen etc, but no religion that I know of does respecting another religion remove you from yours. I could be wrong though.

We are trying to be more sensitive to "minorities" so we are doing less. Why not do more! So the CF does christian parades, cool. I know we have Islamic priests as padres, hell I have talked to them (am considering a third career when I am done travelling) and I am sure they could arrange a parade to honor Muslims. If they can't, and if the CF wants that, contact me, I will do my darndest to make Muslims be on board.

Or screw it. Take my firearms, take my right to raise my kids as I see fit, take my right to enjoy classic cars, old boats, make me pay more taxes, take my rights to hunting, fishing and camping. I love Canada, Most Canadians too even. But what about our traditions, our culture, our history, I love that too, even the bad parts.

I've been rambling to long, who knows maybe I shouldn't be upset about this and I am part of the problem as a rich, white, dude.

Abdullah

P.s I know Canada is not a christian nation, that was said in a childish fit more in spirit then reality. I need to grow up sorry again.

 

[Remius]

There are certain circumstances when military members have to "conduct business" at functions that may have a religious component separate from their military function; an example would be a bearer party or honour guard at a funeral.  A church parade is different; the sole purpose is to bring soldiers to a place of worship for the purpose of worship, there is no other separate military requirement for them to be there.

A funeral is a religious rite.  There is no separate business there.  The sole purpose of the a soldier in an honour guard or pall bearer is to participate in the funeral rite.  It is completely integrated.  It is not some separate thing that just happens at the same time.

if we are going to go full on secular then soldiers should never be at any funeral in any official capacity unless it is devoid of any religious connotations.

We can't have it one way for some things and one way for others.   

No religious types at the national war memorial on 11 November.  Instead have a PAFFO give a non religious speech.

While were at it "In Flanders Fields" has religious connotations and should be amended. 

Get rid of the padre part of the CAF.  Social workers can take that on.

Are you going to be buried at Beechwood cemetary?  Remove the choice to have Crosses or Crescents or stars of David.  You can do it on the civy side but we don't want to offend the dead or families that might be visiting former soldiers. 

Why are we even asking for religion on PEN forms and dog tags.  Ditch that stuff.

Weddings?  Well no uniforms if it is a religious ceremony but you are gtg if it is at city hall.

Almost every Highland regiment has a St Andrew's Cross on their headdress.  why are we forcing anyone not of that faith to wear that?!!

Junior Ranks holiday dinner?  Turkey? stuffing?  Yeah, it's not a xmas party but be real, it is exactly that.  Time to forgo that. 

See what this leads to?

The very fact that this commander was ok with Sikhs to parading on a Sikh holy day but bans church parades tells me enough about what the motivations are.

So if you don't like church parades don't go.  If you do, go.  If most people don't go they'll stop happening.  Let nature take its course but don't tell people what they can and can't do.  they only thing I'll agree to is that they should not be mandatory.  But in my experience, most members of my unit from a variety of faiths or non faiths go because it is a regimental activity and that's the way they see it.

Imagine an activity where people from different faiths and culture can get together to follow a tradition that may not be their own and manage not to kill each other.  Crazy world we live in.  Ban it before it spreads...

   

 

[a_majoor]

But most of all, in such small incremental strikes, does Canadian history and tradition lose strength.

Herein lies the problem. If we accept that history and tradition is meaningful, then we also need to  understand the history and context of things like church parades. Units have longstanding ties to churches and communities (think of "Freedom of the City"), and new soldiers will learn about the unit, its history and its place in the community with a church parade either on Remembrance Day or when going to the church where the colours are laid up. The fact the colours are laid up at a church and not a temple or mosque reflects the origins and history of the unit, and of Canada as a whole. Unless the Padre is also evangelizing as part of the church parade, normal people are going to treat the parade for what it is: establishing and deepening ties with a part of the community where the unit came from.

As a negative counter example, there is a Boer War monument in Victoria Park, London, which is essentially abandoned and ignored (the official Cenotaph is at the South West corner of Victoria Park). 1 RCR left decades ago, and none of the other units mentioned on the plinth have any connection to London either. The families of the dead may have moved away generations ago. The connection has been allowed to wither away and become lost over time. I can see the same thing gradually happening to the "Holy Roller" tank monument in the north of Victoria Park as WWII veterans from the First Hussars pass, although the unit does make an effort to continue remembrances there.

So stamping out history and tradition in the name of preventing "offence" to a small minority of individuals (who might not even be connected to the Armed Forces) is stupid and counter productive. The moments it takes to educate serving members will pay off in the longer term, and using that same time to educate civilians as to "why" we do what we do can also change that "support that is a mile wide and an inch deep" we get from the public. And if a local Temple or other place of worship wants to invite the unit for a visit or a parade, then more power to them and to the unit for accepting.

As an aside, I'll also mention that we are expected to learn more about religions and customs in places we deploy, and Padres are now tasked to do "Religious Leader Engagements", so cutting ourselves off from that source of information and experience here at home is just going to make the job even harder "over there". /rant

 

[FJAG]

Atheism is making a god out of not having a god.  It is still a religious conviction.  So for those who figure that no one should be compelled to attend a religious service great.  Just don't tell those who wish to that they can't.  As for religious parades they fall under the category of tradition: the same tradition history that requires officers to wear swords and requires little bits of rope to be attached to the sleeve and so on.  Tradition is a good thing and having a commanding officer who belittles tradition is bad; particularly when dealing with reserve formations who are often (no always) anchored to a community and cling to the community's ideals.  This commanding officer is demonstrating that he knows absolutely nothing about leadership.  imho

Sorry. Atheism is neither a god nor a religious conviction. It is a conviction that there is no deity and therefore a rejection in any belief of a deity or any religion based on one. That doesn't mean atheists can't respect individuals that do have beliefs or follow a religious practice. Personally I'm very selective. There are some religions which IMHO do not deserve respect because they have components to them which foster subjugation, inequality or violence.

I'm with PPCLI Guy on this one. Back in 2005 the USAF Academy was investigated for incidents of evangelical staff and cadets actively proselytizing.

The panel's investigation found a "religious climate that does not involve overt religious discrimination, but a failure to fully accommodate all members' needs and a lack of awareness over where the line is drawn between permissible and impermissible expression of beliefs." Evidence discovered during the investigation included antisemitic remarks, official sponsorship of a showing of the film The Passion of the Christ and a locker room banner that said academy athletes played for "Team Jesus."

The problem is that deeply devout leaders could use the hierarchical structure of the military to push their own religious beliefs on subordinates.

I'm not a great fan of accommodating any religious beliefs. The problem is where do you draw the line on what the system needs to accommodate? The fact of the matter is that there really can't be any line when one deals with such things as nebulous as religious beliefs. Any line is ultimately arbitrary. That said, I do recognize that some accommodations are necessary if we truly wish to be an inclusive society.

I don't buy the "tradition" argument either. There was a time when slavery was part of the "traditional Southern lifestyle". That's done with. Every tradition has a first day and a last day. We can create new "traditions" when we find some repetitive activity useful. We can end a tradition when its usefulness has expired or it becomes anathema to our modern culture or mores. Sometimes it takes great courage to say "this tradition needs to end" and take the steps to do so.

IMHO, religion is very much a private matter. Individuals in any organization, including the military, should have the opportunity to practice it, with a degree of reasonable accommodation. It should not be an official activity, even if only voluntary. People on this site constantly complain about unit COs wasting the troops time and training budget on grandiose "social" activities. My question is: why should the public fund salaries for soldiers to attend church parades?

Quite frankly I would suggest that, but for deployed troops, all religious functions in Canada should be an individual's private affair using local, civilian facilities and ministers. However, I do understand and acknowledge the usefulness of chaplains for deployed troops because they perform worthwhile functions that go far beyond mere religious services and quite frankly I haven't come up with any better alternative way of delivering those services.

:stirpot:

 

[Remius]

FJAG, you are equating institutional state sanctioned slavery to a Unit's church parade?

If people were forced to go I could see the link.  If it was a hotbed of attempts to convert I could see the link.

The example is a little extreme.

I always took ours as an opportunity to see more of my unit's history (Like regimental artifacts) and participate in what I consider a social function (normally there is a reception after).  Our chapel is not of my denomination, I never felt like someone was trying to evangelize me and great efforts have gone into making everyone feel welcome.  That particular parish also takes great pride in being the regimental chapel and are great stewards and caretakers of our history.

If people stop going the tradition will die, and I'm sure for some parts of the CAF it has but for other parts it still happens.  Let nature take it's course.  We used to have a ladies' auxiliary.  but that stopped well before my time.  I'm sure it was a great thing at the time but it faded but not because someone engineered it.

Blatchford said it right.  No one is being harmed by this.

 

[FJAG]

FJAG, you are equating institutional state sanctioned slavery to a Unit's church parade?
...

No! No, I'm not.

What I am saying is that there is no magic in the word "tradition". Just because something is a tradition doesn't mean that you have to keep following it blindly ad infinitum. What you need to do is to determine if it still plays a useful role in our current culture and then decide as to whether or not it should be kept on.

We don't bring soldiers home on their shields anymore like Spartans; we don't consult the entrails of chickens before a battle anymore like the Romans; we don't use the lash as a punishment anymore like the British did. "Traditions" change.

Do you get my point now?

:cheers:

 

[mariomike]

I recall some groans about church parades. Not about religious convictions. But, about the preparation of kit required.

We had ours up in Hillsburgh for some reason.

 

[dapaterson]

we don't consult the entrails of chickens before a battle anymore like the Romans;

No, that's what we have CFTPO for.

 

[Remius]

No! No, I'm not.

What I am saying is that there is no magic in the word "tradition". Just because something is a tradition doesn't mean that you have to keep following it blindly ad infinitum. What you need to do is to determine if it still plays a useful role in our current culture and then decide as to whether or not it should be kept on.

We don't bring soldiers home on their shields anymore like Spartans; we don't consult the entrails of chickens before a battle anymore like the Romans; we don't use the lash as a punishment anymore like the British did. "Traditions" change.

Do you get my point now?

:cheers:

I did get your point.  I agree to an extent.  I just thought the slavery comparison a bit over the top.

Harmless traditions though should be allowed to run their course.  I have no issue stopping traditional hazing, harassment and anything else that might harm someone.

But this is an example of PC gone too far. 

 

[Kirkhill]

Sounds like we need to go back to this:

Then we can all look terrible together  ;D

Babies and bathwater....

Uniform uniforms are no bad thing - if the uniforms are well designed. 

Just like mental asylums are no bad thing - if the asylums are sympathetically managed.

 

[quadrapiper]

Quite frankly I would suggest that, but for deployed troops, all religious functions in Canada should be an individual's private affair using local, civilian facilities and ministers. However, I do understand and acknowledge the usefulness of chaplains for deployed troops because they perform worthwhile functions that go far beyond mere religious services and quite frankly I haven't come up with any better alternative way of delivering those services.

Not entirely sure why the Chaplaincy hasn't been shifted entirely to support that role: perhaps host a suitable number in e.g. Service or Medical formations. The need for active chapels providing duplicate services to the local community's places of worship is less clear.

Someone else made a comment about funerals, referring to those as entirely religious rites: one assumes that's entirely up to the deceased or their family, who might opt for a funeral both entirely secular and including whatever military presence/participation might be suitable.

 

[McG]

A funeral is a religious rite.  There is no separate business there.  The sole purpose of the a soldier in an honour guard or pall bearer is to participate in the funeral rite.  It is completely integrated.  It is not some separate thing that just happens at the same time.

if we are going to go full on secular then soldiers should never be at any funeral in any official capacity unless it is devoid of any religious connotations.

Can you really not differentiate between a attending a funeral or memorial, where the purpose is to commemorate one or more fallen, from attending church, where the purpose is participation in religious ceremony/rite?  Others can't distinguish a religious event from a community event with religious/cultural injects reflective of the participants? And do people really believe some of the slippery slopes and absurd extrapolations in this thread? The next step after not attending church as a regiment is to cast off uniforms?  Really?

Anyway, this thread is about a reserve brigade's decision and one of the arguments in this thread is that the parades are about connecting with communities. If we are going to spend Class A days on a parade, lets spend those Class A days on a military parade out in the public where all members of the community can see and connect with the activity.  Let's not waste those days hidden away being sermonized in church parade which will only ever be noticed by an ever shrinking segment of the population that happens to have the correct religious affiliation.

 

[Remius]

Can you really not differentiate between a attending a funeral or memorial, where the purpose is to commemorate one or more fallen, from attending church, where the purpose is participation in religious ceremony/rite?  Others can't distinguish a religious event from a community event with religious/cultural injects reflective of the participants? And do people really believe some of the slippery slopes and absurd extrapolations in this thread? The next step after not attending church as a regiment is to cast off uniforms?  Really?

Anyway, this thread is about a reserve brigade's decision and one of the arguments in this thread is that the parades are about connecting with communities. If we are going to spend Class A days on a parade, lets spend those Class A days on a military parade out in the public where all members of the community can see and connect with the activity.  Let's not waste those days hidden away being sermonized in church parade which will only ever be noticed by an ever shrinking segment of the population that happens to have the correct religious affiliation.

Sure I can.  We either go all in or not.  That is my point.  But most funerals are religious (I'm not making up the definition of a funeral rite) and involve a place of worship where mass or whatever will be conducted.  Even those that are not religious still use practices borrowed from other faiths.  Burials, cremations whatever.  I've carried caskets in church in uniform and have been paid for it.  So yeah if it is just a commemoration or celebration of life then all fair but the moment you add religion then bad! 

Why are we picking on one thing and not the others?  This CO was ok with allowing participation in a Sikh holy day but it's not ok to have a unit participate in something they might have been doing annually for over a century?  It's virtue signalling.  Between that and stating that unless they find women to fill honouraries they won't fill the spots, do the math, add it up and it is a PC agenda gone too far.

If he had just said, church parades are not mandatory and class pay is not authorised but units can still participate as they see fit based on their history and heritage that would be one thing.  This is not that though. 

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Can you really not differentiate between a attending a funeral or memorial, where the purpose is to commemorate one or more fallen, from attending church, where the purpose is participation in religious ceremony/rite?  Others can't distinguish a religious event from a community event with religious/cultural injects reflective of the participants? And do people really believe some of the slippery slopes and absurd extrapolations in this thread? The next step after not attending church as a regiment is to cast off uniforms?  Really?

Anyway, this thread is about a reserve brigade's decision and one of the arguments in this thread is that the parades are about connecting with communities. If we are going to spend Class A days on a parade, lets spend those Class A days on a military parade out in the public where all members of the community can see and connect with the activity.  Let's not waste those days hidden away being sermonized in church parade which will only ever be noticed by an ever shrinking segment of the population that happens to have the correct religious affiliation.

You’re choosing to single out only one element of the issues raised, while simultaneously disregarding the connections between the significance of such a move and the optics of a (seemingly) rogue brigade—a brigade that is now accumulating a bit of a list of instances where they’ll (very publically) do what they want apart from the standards of the rest of CAF. Whether the “slippery slopes and absurd extrapolations” mentioned actually come to fruition or not isn’t the point.

Narrowing the field of focus to one minute viewpoint rather than observing the entirety of the issue is a problem. This is significantly more than just “a reserve brigade’s decision.” (That makes it sound as though you’re deducting the weight of this down to something as benign as stating the brigade will no longer include cheese in box-lunches.) Again, one of the major points of all of this is that it’s an example of a major alteration to the way things have been done (and expected) CAF-wide. Whether anyone reading personally agrees or disagrees with military presence/parades/participation in churches really isn’t the point.

Even if one doesn’t agree with the possibility of specific agendas at play by snr cmd which were mentioned, there’s still a very problematic bigger picture forming here and it can affect components some people haven’t even thought of. A quick example?  Let’s look at the band. (yes, yes, I’m well aware some don’t give two shits about the band—anywhere—not the point.) It’s steeped in tradition and purpose and has its place among all types of services, ceremonies and parades alike and always has. But the majority of pers aren’t aware of just how many of their Regimental pieces and marches are directly taken from hymns--either in their entirety or mere excerpts. The majority of the tunes are wholly religious, mostly taken from Christian British composers throughout history. So in the spirit of what’s been expressed by some here, it’s important we do away with them completely—there’s no place for any type of Christian affiliation among CAF tradition in any form, right?       

 

[Kirkhill]

When this bleeding war is over;
No more soldiering for me.
When I get my civvy clothes on,
Oh! How happy I shall be.
No more church parades on Sundays,
No more asking for a pass.
We can tell the Sergeant Major
To stick his passes up his arse!

http://www.musicanet.org/robokopp/english/whenthis.htm

Circa WW1  ;D ;D ;D

 

[BeyondTheNow]

http://www.musicanet.org/robokopp/english/whenthis.htm

Circa WW1  ;D ;D ;D

Lol. Thanks for that :rofl:

 

[mariomike]

When this bleeding war is over;
No more soldiering for me.
When I get my civvy clothes on,
Oh! How happy I shall be.
No more church parades on Sundays,
No more asking for a pass.
We can tell the Sergeant Major
To stick his passes up his arse!

MARKO
                              (yelling)
                        AT EASE!

                                    HOFFY
                        Break it off, boys! At ease for the
                        news!

              The ruckus subsides.

                                    MARKO
                        Today's Camp News!
                              (reading)
                        Father Murray announces that due to
                        local regulations the Christmas
                        midnight Mass will be held at seven
                        in the morning!

                                    STOSH
                        You can tell Father Murray to --

                                    MARKO
                        At ease! He also says, quote: All
                        you sack rats better show up for the
                        services and no bull from anybody.
                        Unquote. At ease!

 

[Blackadder1916]

That's what you need in the army.

https://youtu.be/B9PV-smPTds?t=901