"Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation

[ArmyRick]

Anyone who is willing to jump out of a Herc into an Arctic Blizzard to rescue somebody can have the money…

Its the going on a sinking ship in the ocean in terrible weather to rescue people that scares the beef tacos right out of me (SAR Tech huge respect, I could never do that)

 

[daftandbarmy]

We need Canadian Marines who, in a typical Canadian compromise, would wear square rig with a Sam Browne belt, and only be employed in an airborne role.

But, to be consistent, the Army shouldn't tell the Navy or the Air Force that they've sold this idea to the politicians already

 

[Weinie]

I thought using gendered language was not on these days? I'm so confused...

I'm/him/she/gender-diffuse/Indifferent/ even more confused. But then I stopped caring.

 

[torg003]

Anyway, getting back on topic. , when the idea of changing the Army officer ranks back to the British pips (Order of the Bath Star), I thought that they should've tried something to make these older style ranks more Canadian. Here is an altered version of a rank insignia poster from that time period:

 

[OldSolduer]

Its the going on a sinking ship in the ocean in terrible weather to rescue people that scares the beef tacos right out of me (SAR Tech huge respect, I could never do that)

I met the pair that did this. One had a broken leg. The other well it was his second time - a bar for his MB - amazing

 

[torg003]

So obviously just replacing the Bath stars with maple leaves, but definitely would've made it more Canadian. Obviously the gov't was criticized for just re-adopting British ranks and not trying to make them Canadian. Of course that led to the development of the "Vimy Star" , because we didn't have a Star of the Order of Military Merit. Just as an historical aside, the original design for the OMM had 5 levels (and a medal), the top 2 levels having breast stars. The Liberal gov't of the time (PM PET) wanted it to have only 3 levels to match the newly expanded Order of Canada. So I was kind of surprised that the Harper Cons didn't try to bring back the idea of expanding the OMM to 5 levels so that they could have a legitimate Canadian Pip. I guess when it came down to it, they didn't really care.
Anyway, just for shits and giggles, here is another idea for the "pips and crowns" insignia. I thought that use of the British general officer garget should've been changed to a more Canadian design using maple leaves instead of oak leaves. Here is a mock up that increases the number of maple leaves on the garget as the rank goes up. This would've been to help non-commonwealth military members more easily identify the general's rank.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Anyway, getting back on topic.

I vote we table the "Officer army rank" crap and continue to develop the stuff about Vikings, add Pirates and make our own version of Army.ca Deadliest Warrior...

 

[torg003]

Hopefully no one gets an aneurism from me posting these ideas in this thread. It's strange that some people seem to think that discussing or posting ideas on rank changes will somehow make the CAF not be able to buy boots or other need equipment, but that seems to be the typical reaction.
All in good fun.

 

[torg003]

I vote we table the "Officer army rank" crap and continue to develop the stuff about Vikings, add Pirates and make our own version of Army.ca Deadliest Warrior...

OK, so we're talking Navy ranks then.
What do you envision for this Viking-Pirate Navy ranks-wise??

 

[Eye In The Sky]

OK, so we're talking Navy ranks then.
What do you envision for this Viking-Pirate Navy ranks-wise??

 

[dimsum]

OK, so we're talking Navy ranks then.
What do you envision for this Viking-Pirate Navy ranks-wise??

I, for one, think "First Sea Lord" is better than "CRCN"

 

[dapaterson]

I, for one, think a Navy of 12K Reg and Res, and Army of 45K, Reg and Res, and an Air Force of 12K, Reg and Res, could and should each be commanded by RAdm / MGen, with the related downranking of the CDS to VAdm / LGen.

With subsequent reductions all the way down.

And, since the NDA clearly stipulates that commissions for officers are granted during pleasure (NDA 20(1)) it should be much easier to kick officers out of the CAF for misconduct.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I still think the old officer ranks, simple bars, was the best system. Simple and effective, what more can you want.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I, for one, think a Navy of 12K Reg and Res, and Army of 45K, Reg and Res, and an Air Force of 12K, Reg and Res, could and should each be commanded by RAdm / MGen, with the related downranking of the CDS to VAdm / LGen.

With subsequent reductions all the way down.

And, since the NDA clearly stipulates that commissions for officers are granted during pleasure (NDA 20(1)) it should be much easier to kick officers out of the CAF for misconduct.

 

[FJAG]

I, for one, think a Navy of 12K Reg and Res, and Army of 45K, Reg and Res, and an Air Force of 12K, Reg and Res, could and should each be commanded by RAdm / MGen, with the related downranking of the CDS to VAdm / LGen.

With subsequent reductions all the way down.

And, since the NDA clearly stipulates that commissions for officers are granted during pleasure (NDA 20(1)) it should be much easier to kick officers out of the CAF for misconduct.

If that concurrently includes downranking of all EX positions - count me in.

I just looked at the growth of the civil service and the two Trudeau eras are noticeable (sorry - I can't control the colours)



How many EXs do we have for how many civil servants?

 

[daftandbarmy]

If that concurrently includes downranking of all EX positions - count me in.

I just looked at the growth of the civil service and the two Trudeau eras are noticeable (sorry - I can't control the colours)

View attachment 72891

How many EXs do we have for how many civil servants?

I'm guessing 99% of those positions are in Ottawa.

I've got some Federal government contacts out this way who are 'dying on the vine' due to a lack of staff. Especially when people must go back to Ottawa so they can get promoted.

 

[torg003]

I still think the old officer ranks, simple bars, was the best system. Simple and effective, what more can you want.

So you're talking about going back to original unification ranks I assume, gold rank lace on the cuff for all officers. Does that include a single uniform for all as well? I wonder if unification would've been more acceptable to the AF and navy types if green wasn't the chosen colour of the uniform? The army used to have a dress blue uniform (with the standing collar), so if dark blue had been the colour choice, it might've been more acceptable all around. Though, the army types didn't care for the navy style rank on the cuffs, but they may not have minded as much if they were allowed to have worn them on shoulder boards instead.
If today, the uniform was changed to a neutral colour, such as a dark grey and the NCM rank insignia was Corps colour, with the officer ranks keeping the gold rank lace with corps colour 'lights" in between, would that be a better compromise?
Is there more people in the CAF now that favour the simplicity of the original unification system and would like to go back one uniform and rank system? It certainly would be more cost effective, but would that actually result in savings that would be able to be used for needed equipment? Or is the military so over managed that it still keep having problems getting needed equipment in a timely manner?

 

[dimsum]

So you're talking about going back to original unification ranks I assume, gold rank lace on the cuff for all officers. Does that include a single uniform for all as well? I wonder if unification would've been more acceptable to the AF and navy types if green wasn't the chosen colour of the uniform? The army used to have a dress blue uniform (with the standing collar), so if dark blue had been the colour choice, it might've been more acceptable all around. Though, the army types didn't care for the navy style rank on the cuffs, but they may not have minded as much if they were allowed to have worn them on shoulder boards instead.

Frankly, it wouldn't have mattered. Whatever colour would have pissed off at least 1, maybe 2 elements at the time. You're talking about an incredibly conservative (not political, just "resistant to change") organization where every little thing has some sort of symbolism. Just look at how the return of the Executive Curl (Elliott's Eye) for RCN officers became this big thing.

Even if it went to Navy Blue, the RCN would complain that it was single breasted rather than double-breasted. I'm only half-joking.

If today, the uniform was changed to a neutral colour, such as a dark grey and the NCM rank insignia was Corps colour, with the officer ranks keeping the gold rank lace with corps colour 'lights" in between, would that be a better compromise?

I don't know about others, but the gold on green (or gold on blue) really irked me for some reason. If we had kept bars, I would have gone with silver (or whatever Corps thing) for the green uniform. The current RCAF colour ranks (pearl grey) looks a lot less jarring against the blue DEU.

Is there more people in the CAF now that favour the simplicity of the original unification system and would like to go back one uniform and rank system? It certainly would be more cost effective, but would that actually result in savings that would be able to be used for needed equipment?

No. I don't think "let's go back to bars for Army officers" is even on the top 1000 of priorities for 99% of currently serving personnel.

 

[FSTO]

So you're talking about going back to original unification

Unification could have been so easy if we just followed most of the world with a navy by having Naval Air, Fleet and Marines.

 

[daftandbarmy]

No. I don't think "let's go back to bars for Army officers" is even on the top 1000 of priorities for 99% of currently serving personnel.

As with the introduction of pips, which no one except the government wanted, this means that it will go straight to the top of the priority list.