"Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation

[Eye In The Sky]

Can someone PM me Para 11 and 18?  I am not able to get to a DWAN PC for a bit.  I am HOPING it has nothing to do with me needing to see a tailor...

Looks like my spider sense is still working...tks for the PM. 

 

[Loachman]

It could have been worse, I suppose, and probably will be before too long.

That's me in my Eeyore voice.

 

[little jim]

Would appreciate if someone could pm me the details.  For those of us who have no access to DWAN....

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

The reason they have to buy new tunics is because simply removing bars would leave shadows where they were stitched on the sleeves. A Sgt upon promotion to WO does the same.

 

[vonGarvin]

Instead, they will revert to the complicated system of pips and crowns worn during WW II.

THIS line has irked me all day.  Yeah, I get it: this is the CBC.  And I get it: they don't like "the Harper Government" tm  But they don't have to drag us into it.

First of all, the system is no more complicated than our current officer insignia, and one could argue that it's less complicated.  I mean, why then are so many armies using a system similar to the "pips and crowns" insignia (even though there are variations: using oak leaves vice crowns, etc).

And yes, we used the system in WW II.  I suppose that makes us archaic.  But then again, we used that system back in 1969, and it was then that our system changed for no good reason (other, perhaps, than a case of butt hurt by Hellyer, but I digress...)

Finally, why not compare the soon to be implemented insignia with that of the RCMP, rather than of some "archaic, complicated system"?

 

[PuckChaser]

We do far more complex things in the CAF, that I think we can figure out 2 symbols and their hierarchy for 11 ranks. Complicated is not a descriptor I'd use, despite not really buying into the full usefulness of changing back to the tune of multi-millions. Especially since it was originally sold as "replace old tunics as they are worn out/promoted", which morphed into "you will order a brand new tunic by Aug 14 at Crown expense".

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

The CANFORGEN about changing to pips and crowns upon promotion is only for mess kit. Combat and DEU's all change at the same time.

 

[willy]

The reason they have to buy new tunics is because simply removing bars would leave shadows where they were stitched on the sleeves. A Sgt upon promotion to WO does the same.

I didn't.  I had the jacket cleaned and pressed and it looked just fine.  I have two jackets with WO crowns that formerly bore Sgt hooks and neither one has anything wrong with it.  The only thing that keeps me from wearing those ones is that I've embraced my new rank and gotten way too fat for them.

1 x new tunic x every Army Offr in the CAF seems like a lot of money that doesn't need to get spent.

Edit- typo

 

[PMedMoe]

The reason they have to buy new tunics is because simply removing bars would leave shadows where they were stitched on the sleeves. A Sgt upon promotion to WO does the same.

I didn't.  I had the jacket cleaned and pressed and it looked just fine.  I have two jackets with WO crowns that formerly bore Sgt hooks and neither one has anything wrong with it.

I didn't either.  And you can be damn sure if I had, I would have had to use points to do so.

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

I didn't.  I had the jacket cleaned and pressed and it looked just fine.  I have two jackets with WO crowns that formerly bore Sgt hooks and neither one has anything wrong with it. 

Ditto. I kept the same tunic when I CFR'd. However, this is what I was told when I asked G1 Heritage about it.

The only thing that keeps me from wearing those ones is that I've embraced my new rank and gotten way too fat for them.

lmao. Good thing I read that between coffee sips.

1 x new tunic x every Army Offr in the CAF seems like a lot of money that doesn't need to get spent.

Yes. I think there is a consensus that this isn't the most opportune moment to spend funds on this kind of project. Buddy of mine is commanding an infantry soldier DP1 and they aren't teaching M203, M72, 84mm, Claymore et al. Only C7, C9, C6. The 2 Div TC cut the other weapons out because their budget was slashed and no money for ammo.

 

[McG]

The reason they have to buy new tunics is because simply removing bars would leave shadows where they were stitched on the sleeves. A Sgt upon promotion to WO does the same.

Only if the new WO chooses to invest in a new jacket.  The WO does not get a no cost jacket like all of the officers will be getting.

… why not compare the soon to be implemented insignia with that of the RCMP, rather than of some "archaic, complicated system"?

Why not compare to the Ottawa or Toronto police forces which somehow managed to nationalize the rank insignia while we, a national institution starting from a blank slate, are returning to the Star of the Order of the Bath?

… back in 1969, and it was then that our system changed for no good

As it is being changed now for no good reason?

First of all, the system is no more complicated than our current officer insignia, …

1 common rank insignia for all = less complicated than three rank insignia

(NATO 1 star = Cdn 1 leaf, NATO 2 star = Cdn 2 leaf, etc) = less complicated than (NATO 1 star = Cdn no star, NATO 2 star = Cdn 1 star)

… one could argue that [stars and crowns are] less complicated.

Only if one were a cheerleader for the cause.

[If it is more complicated] why then are so many armies using a system similar to the "pips and crowns"

Only commonwealth nations use a pattern similar to stars and crowns (and the majority of such nations have nationalized the specific pips/icons).  Continental armies follow different patters with their stars that arguably the patterns of the continental armies are less complicated than the British pattern … but I would not give that as a blanket statement.

Yes, one can selectively pick a few rank levels and present that rank with a hand-picked selection of nations (and to the exclusion of ranks higher and/or lower) to create the illusion that we are joining some international standard.  Captain is a popular rank for presenting this distorted reality.  Try this at the LCol level and all of a sudden the British pattern looks one rank junior to any other “stars and superior national symbol” pattern in NATO.

… there are variations: using oak leaves vice crowns, etc

I hope you are not referring to the internal piece of propaganda that put the US major’s oak leaf next to a St Edward’s crown and suggested we will now have more in common with the US Army because both countries use “a single superior national symbol” for the rank of major.  Firstly, the “superior national symbol” in the US rank is the eagle for Colonels and navy Captains.  Secondly, the only similarity between US rank and near-future Canadian Army rank is the deceptive individual who hoped the military was gullible enough to accept the selected representation as reality.

1 x new tunic x every Army Offr in the CAF seems like a lot of money that doesn't need to get spent.

Add in individual shipping to home addresses, and tailoring to re-attach all the brigade patches and skill hazard badges … and more tailoring for all those who don’t fit a standard size.

I think there is a consensus that this isn't the most opportune moment to spend funds on this kind of project.

Yep.

 

[Privateer]

No matter where you stand on this issue, those slides are priceless!

"Dammit, we need rank insignia commonality with Nazi generals!"

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Only if the new WO chooses to invest in a new jacket.  The WO does not get a no cost jacket like all of the officers will be getting.

...........and why not? They are Officers also.

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

The argument for an ''international'' standard is farcical. If anything, the only international standard we're joining is the Commonwealth one, which is unique. The argument for resemblances between the Commonwealth system and other European/American systems the PDF tries to attract our attention to is defeated when you examine them all closer. I think it is a very poor talking point at best.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Annndddd, here we go, back to the first few pages  :

(In case you miss it, that's a star being sucked into a black hole. Just like this thread.)

 

[Privateer]

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

No matter where you stand on this issue, those slides are priceless!

"Dammit, we need rank insignia commonality with Nazi generals!"

And exactly how do General Foulkes rank insignia resemble those of Generaloberst Blaskowitz's? They are two completely different systems.

The German system used different shoulder board types for company, field, and general grade officers as actual ''superior'' symbols and then used from zero to three pips or crossed batons in the case of a generalfeldmarschall to denote actual ranks.

Like I said... poor talking points.

 

[MilEME09]

Courtesy of the CBC

Canadian Forces' return to old-style ranks, insignia costs millions

At a time of federal belt-tightening, the Conservative government's return to World War II-era ranks and insignia will require new dress uniforms for Canadian soldiers and naval officers at a cost of $4.5 million.

Defence Department figures show the bulk of that cost — $3.1 million — will go to buy new jackets for the dark green dress uniforms army officers wear to formal events and on parades.

A similar change for naval officers — the addition of a curl to the top bar of their traditional naval rank — has a cost of $1.35 million, the Defence Department says.
That puts the cost of new jackets for the highest-ranking soldiers and sailors at almost $4.5 million.

Those costs are only necessary because of Conservative government changes to rank titles for the army and insignia for officers in the army and navy announced last year.

As a result, army officers will no longer wear gold-coloured bars sewn to their tunic sleeves or epaulettes. Instead, they will revert to the complicated system of pips and crowns worn during WW II.

But it appears those gold bars cannot be simply removed from army officers' dress jackets and the military must now order new dress jackets for every one of the army's officers.

Defence Minister Rob Nicholson's press secretary, Johanna Quinney, said the government's move was designed to honour the traditions and history of the Canadian Forces.

"This initiative encourages esprit de corps for our soldiers and reinforces our country's rich military history," Quinney said. "The return of the historical identity of the Canadian Armed Forces also strengthens the link between today's members and the previous generations of heroes who bravely served our country."

These costs come as the military labours to come up with $1 billion in cost savings as part of a government-mandated defence renewal initiative. That process was sparked by a demand from Prime Minister Stephen Harper himself, laid on the table the day Gen. Tom Lawson took command as chief of the defence staff.

"The Forces must be restructured to ensure administrative burdens are reduced and resources freed up for the front line," Harper said at the time. "The Canada First Defence Strategy must continue to advance, and as I've said before, with the constant search for more teeth and less tail."

The army will now also be forced to spend more than $250,000 for the new crowns and pips officers will wear on their epaulettes and gorget patches — those red tabs some army officers wear on the collars of their shirts.
​The costs are part of a host of changes announced since 2011 to return certain Canadian ranks and titles to their traditional equivalents. Both the navy and air force acquired the title "Royal" in their name and the army has become the "Canadian Army."

Among the changes is the formalization of historic rank titles for certain army soldiers. Privates in the military communications trade, for instance, are now called signallers.

The changes have been mocked by some who wonder why the government is reverting to army ranks and insignia that went out of use in 1968 — almost 20 years before the last soldier to die in Afghanistan was even born.

NDP defence critic Jack Harris says it's a waste of money.

"This is certainly not an austerity measure," Harris told CBC News. "For what, to throw back to the Second World War? Why turn back the clock for something that is totally unnecessary? We had a perfectly adequate and relatively well-known set of insignia for the public.

"Meanwhile, the needs of our veterans and military personnel in uniform who have housing issues, medical and mental health issues and have other needs that they are crying out for help for, are being treated with — well, I wouldn't call it indifference, but not the priority they deserve."

As part of the move, the four former Land Force Areas have been renamed divisions and awarded new colour-coded shoulder patches for their dress uniforms. The Defence Department expects that change will cost about $1 million.

"Bringing back the divisional structure reinstates an important and recognizable part of military heritage, along with a key part of our nation's identity," military communications adviser Ashley Lemire wrote in an email.

"This will honour the sacrifices of former members of the Canadian Army, while establishing clear lineage to the contributions of today's soldiers."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-forces-return-to-old-style-ranks-insignia-costs-millions-1.2679716

 

[Ostrozac]

The argument for an ''international'' standard is farcical. If anything, the only international standard we're joining is the Commonwealth one, which is unique. The argument for resemblances between the Commonwealth system and other European/American systems the PDF tries to attract our attention to is defeated when you examine them all closer. I think it is a very poor talking point at best.

And it's not even a standardized system throughout the entire Commonweatlh -- Cameroon and Mozambique have officers' rank insignia based on the French Army and the Portuguese Army, respectively, but both nations are members of the Commonweatlh.

 

[Old EO Tech]

I'm surprised that the RCAF changes have not recieved more of a spot light here.  And as a former Air Cadet, I'm really surprised they did not use the historical Air Craftsman/Leading Air Craftsman ranks instead of Aviator which seems rather a US Navy-ism. I guess the RCEME Corps is the only one to put heritage ahead of being PC :-/