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"Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation

The RCN has its old rank titles and executive curl back. What should be the next step for the CF ra

  • Nothing. The current rank system works, so leave it alone.

    Votes: 123 56.4%
  • Complete return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.

    Votes: 45 20.6%
  • Complete return to post unification ranks of the 70s and early 80s.

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • Officers only return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.

    Votes: 9 4.1%
  • Copy the UK rank system - it is the prototype anyway.

    Votes: 19 8.7%
  • Copy the US rank system - they are the new colonial master.

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Create a whole new Canadian system.

    Votes: 9 4.1%
  • Lobby for standardized NATO rank insignia.

    Votes: 8 3.7%
  • Copy the French rank system - it is the other founding nation's turn

    Votes: 1 0.5%

  • Total voters
    218

Old Sweat

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I doubt if there will be any fiddling with brigadiers vice brigadier generals. As for your other point, majors were not junior officers, they were "field" officers.
 

McG

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jpjohnsn said:
Why is a system unique to a single country such a selling point? 
The world over (universally amongst our NATO allies but with some exceptions external to the alliance) military ranks are distinct to a nation and they often contain imagery and symbolism of national pride.  Just as a flag is linked with the identity of its nation, so too is the rank insignia and uniform of the military.
 
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Lets make no mistake the NDA has always had the NCM nomenclature correct. To say DND is going to formalize would seem redundant.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/N-5/page-146.html#docCont
 

dapaterson

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The lone gunmen said:
Lets make no mistake the NDA has always had the NCM nomenclature correct. To say DND is going to formalize would seem redundant.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/N-5/page-146.html#docCont

QR&O volume 1.  Chapter 3.  Please read it.

(And note that neither "Ensign" nor "Colour Sergeant" appears therein.)
 

FJAG

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jpjohnsn said:
Pips and crowns being  called the British System is a nice hot-button turn of phrase that is, as far as I'm concerned, specially designed to play on the Great Canadian Inferiority Complex.  While the design of the pips and crowns is from Britain, at this point it's no more British than hamburgers are American.  It's a British system, an Australian System and the system of many other countries.

:goodpost:

The German army uses pips for junior officers and pips with wreaths for higher ranks.  Italians use stars for junior ranks and stars and a crown-like element or wreath for higher ranks. Many armies, even the Japanese and the Chinese, use an officer designation based on stars  (pips are even called stars) with various add-on devices for higher ranks. Only a few armies (like the French) use stripes at the junior and field levels. Generally stripes are a broadly used navy rank designator.

On a separate topic, I'm not sure why it is so important to keep the maple leaf for generals. They wear their army uniforms so rank badges could easily be army ones based on pips, crowns and sword/baton. Most of you probably were born long after the national flag debate. Many westerners felt alienated by the maple leaf flag because the maple (especially the red or sugar maples) were basically a tree that ranged throughout eastern Canada and was not indigenous to the west (although many have been planted there over the last fifty years.) The Liberal government of the day wasn't representative of the west and couldn't care less about western criticism. All they wanted was to get a flag that didn't have the union jack in the corner and was in their party's red and white colours.  :cdnsalute:

Unification, integration and a new flag. Interesting times the sixties were.  :brickwall:

 

Privateer

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And yet I love our flag and would blow a gasket if someone proposed to go back to the Red Duster.

Wait, given that we fought under that flag in WWII and Korea (while wearing pips and crowns, no less)... you don't think...
 

Michael OLeary

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Privateer said:
And yet I love our flag and would blow a gasket if someone proposed to go back to the Red Duster.

Wait, given that we fought under that flag in WWII and Korea (while wearing pips and crowns, no less)... you don't think...

And puttees too, and bell-bottoms for sailors.
 

wannabe SF member

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Privateer said:
And yet I love our flag and would blow a gasket if someone proposed to go back to the Red Duster.

Wait, given that we fought under that flag in WWII and Korea (while wearing pips and crowns, no less)... you don't think...

Really? I'd take the red duster over the red rag any day of the week. The maple leaf flag is about as bland and nondescript as it gets.
 

CombatDoc

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Inky said:
Really? I'd take the red duster over the red rag any day of the week. The maple leaf flag is about as bland and nondescript as it gets.
Once you finish your training and deploy on operations wearing the maple leaf on your left shoulder, your opinion may change. Although I hope you never experience a ramp ceremony, once you salute a coffin draped with the maple leaf it changes your appreciation of it.
 

Happy Guy

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Combat Doc,
Thank you for well written and diplomatic reply to Inky.
I have never been prouder to wear the Maple Leaf while deployed.  While I was born under the Red Ensign I was raised under the Maple Leaf and there lies my heart.
 

FJAG

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Happy Guy said:
Combat Doc,
Thank you for well written and diplomatic reply to Inky.
I have never been prouder to wear the Maple Leaf while deployed.  While I was born under the Red Ensign I was raised under the Maple Leaf and there lies my heart.

:nod:

Notwithstanding my comments above re western resentment when the maple leaf flag was introduced, I agree totally. The maple leaf flag is a simple iconic design that is easily recognized from a distance and clearly identifies us to others. I've always worn mine with pride.

:cdnsalute:

 

Monsoon

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As somebody who has deployed wearing a maple leaf on my shoulder, and who has experienced a degree of gratitude at having a readily-identifiable national symbol in that context and others, I'm also not prepared to deny that a great deal of what we regard as "uniquely Canadian symbolism" is canned nationalism pulled out of the collective asses of Pearson through Trudeau during the 20-year period spanning 1963 to 1983.

While I don't frankly get a vote in the pips-n-crowns debate as a sailor, I'm willing to concede that Canada was a country for nearly a century before that nationalism project took place, and an historical entity for much longer. I don't see anything inherently wrong with recognizing that in our symbolism. I also don't buy the argument against replacing symbols by fiat, particularly when the symbols in question were adopted specifically to whitewash over actual history and symbols that were formerly in use.

So, as long as officer commissions don't go on sale at the CANEX, I don't see this historical reversion as much of a Big Deal.
 

dimsum

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CombatDoc said:
Once you finish your training and deploy on operations wearing the maple leaf on your left shoulder, your opinion may change. Although I hope you never experience a ramp ceremony, once you salute a coffin draped with the maple leaf it changes your appreciation of it.

:goodpost:  Especially the second sentence.

I'd say replace "may" with "will". 
 

Infanteer

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FJAG said:
The maple leaf flag is a simple iconic design that is easily recognized from a distance and clearly identifies us to others. I've always worn mine with pride.

+1
 

Ostrozac

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Michael O'Leary said:
FTFY

As in the star of the Order of the Bath

Which, for me, is the biggest problem that I have with adopting the army officer rank insignia of the pre-1968 era, as the Order of the Bath is no longer in the Canadian honours system.

I would be very happy, for example, if the new "pips" were the star of the Order of Military Merit. And if the three reserve guards regiments wore the star of the Order of Canada.

But to me, the Star of the Order of the Bath is an insignia of an allied nation, not a Canadian insignia.
 

OldSolduer

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Inky said:
Really? I'd take the red duster over the red rag any day of the week. The maple leaf flag is about as bland and nondescript as it gets.
You call the flag of my nation a "red rag" again and we'll be having words. :cdn: :rage:

Get a plucking grip.
 

Thompson_JM

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Inky said:
Really? I'd take the red duster over the red rag any day of the week. The maple leaf flag is about as bland and nondescript as it gets.

I'm insulted that we both wear the same uniform. The difference being that the only flag on your left shoulder is velcro'ed on. My "Red Rag" as you call it is a bit more permanent. Unlike you I have something called pride in the symbol of my country... I'm sorry that the flag known the world over for compassion, professionalism, excellence, and that which represents a safe haven of freedom and opportunity for many is just not exciting enough for you... Perhaps we can find you a be-dazzler and you can "Jazz" yours up a little.....  :cdnsalute:

Sgt Maj Seggie said it best...

Grip.
Get one.

Out.
 
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