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"Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation

The RCN has its old rank titles and executive curl back. What should be the next step for the CF ra

  • Nothing. The current rank system works, so leave it alone.

    Votes: 123 56.4%
  • Complete return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.

    Votes: 45 20.6%
  • Complete return to post unification ranks of the 70s and early 80s.

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • Officers only return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.

    Votes: 9 4.1%
  • Copy the UK rank system - it is the prototype anyway.

    Votes: 19 8.7%
  • Copy the US rank system - they are the new colonial master.

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Create a whole new Canadian system.

    Votes: 9 4.1%
  • Lobby for standardized NATO rank insignia.

    Votes: 8 3.7%
  • Copy the French rank system - it is the other founding nation's turn

    Votes: 1 0.5%

  • Total voters
    218

Ostrozac

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Michael O'Leary said:
So, will we move the rank to the shoulder, or turn the clock back a little further to "proper" cuff rank?

Very good point -- is changing our insignia to a World War II style insulting to our World War I heritage? Do we also need red tabs for everyone who is qualified AOC? Should we bring back mandatory moustaches?

I can't wait to wrap up my puttees -- it's a pity that since the procurement system has such trouble with combat boots, the puttees will probably be wrapped around a pair of Danners I bought with my own money. But I guess every organization has to have priorities.
 

SeR

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http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=4882
Additionally, following from the restoration of traditional titles to a number of Canadian Army corps, shoulder titles for members of these corps will be restored.

Does this means that the colourful cloth shoulder titles (such as the ones on the old garrison jackets) replace the metal ones?

On another note, does anyone have any idea when army officers should expect to receive these knew badges? Maybe a month, or closer to a year's time?
 

McG

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I was recently approached by a German Army major who wanted to share how much he liked the Canadian ranks because they were simple, easy to read from a distance, and easy to understand (intuitive).

If we absolutely had to change our rank badges, it would have been better to develop something of our own as opposed to just throwing the British rank back up like a good colony.  But, there was not a need to change rank insignia.
 

SeR

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Well I just found an answer to my own question (if anyone else is interested):

MacKay said the changes will be phased in over the next four years, replacing symbols as the older uniforms wear out.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2013/07/20130708-172839.html
 

OldSolduer

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MCG said:
I was recently approached by a German Army major who wanted to share how much he liked the Canadian ranks because they were simple, easy to read from a distance, and easy to understand (intuitive).

If we absolutely had to change our rank badges, it would have been better to develop something of our own as opposed to just throwing the British rank back up like a good colony.  But, there was not a need to change rank insignia.

It seems we have lost that battle.
 

dimsum

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SeR said:
Well I just found an answer to my own question (if anyone else is interested):

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2013/07/20130708-172839.html

Four years?!  I can see the nervous twitches on RSM's faces already.
 

OldSolduer

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Dimsum said:
Four years?!  I can see the nervous twitches on RSM's faces already.

Including this one. IMO this was unnecessary, as I have said in the past.


 

Michael OLeary

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http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2013/07/20130708-172839.html

The government says the move will cost $245,000 and will eventually pay for itself and then save cash as the changes employ removable pins instead of the current embroidered collars, lapels and shirt sleeves.

What badges are embroidered directly on collars, lapels or sleeves?
How how is changing rank styles going to affect that?
Does this also imply there will be no embroidered versions of pips and crowns?

I can just see pips on the shoulder, held on with the cheap clasps like we saw on the 1812 pin, popping off every time they get caught by the edge of a seat belt.  Carry lots of spares folks.
 

Fishbone Jones

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dapaterson said:
And let's not even start talking about mess kit - lots of pissed off folks, having to get alterations at their own expense because of this...

..............but now there`s a distinction between Retired and Serving. Problem solved.
 

Fishbone Jones

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cavalryman said:
Hmmm.... WO=Crown.... Major=Crown.... placement on cadpat=same...  I sense a disturbance in the Farce...

Trust me. One word or look from either and you`ll have no doubt who you`re dealing with.
 

infant

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Hey 21 signatures is 21 signatures

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/reinstate-pips-and-crowns-for-canadian-army-officers/signatures.html

Nerf herder said:
What I'd like to know is: who or what is the driving force behind all this change just for change sake?

There was obviously no input from the rank and file at all.

Regards











;)
 

McG

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Technoviking said:
Not the first waste of time/money:
The idea that the existence of waste in some places excuses waste in other places is complete nonsense.  By that thinking, we may as well just burn our money because past waste makes current and future waste all okay.

Technoviking said:
At least we'll look like most of other NATO armies for the officer corps:
Not really.  When you look at who shows up to play, pips are not the majority.  Where pips are used, there is not consistency between armies as to the relationship between numbers of pips and the rank.  Four bobbles of one nation may be three for another.  Of all the NATO nations that use pips, we will be the only one not wearing something of our own national indication.  There is no silver lining to this decision.

MarkOttawa said:
But when will the RCAF get its Wing Cos back?
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=4880
http://cdfai3ds.wordpress.com/2013/07/08/mark-collins-five-divisions-for-a-canadian-army-that/
E.R. Campbell said:
How about this for a guess? The RCAF brass were approached but said, "No! For operational reasons we want to look as much like the USAF as possible and Capt/Maj/LCol is what we want."
Based on other posts to this site:
* the infantry were asked if they wanted to be RCIC again; they said no but it was forced on them anyway, and
* the Army was asked if it wanted pips & crowns; the answer was no but those are now imposed on us anyway.

My guess is that, should the RCAF be asked about which ranks it wants, it will not matter a damn as the decision will have already been made that the clock will needlessly, wastefully be turned back regardless of the answer.
 

Gorgo

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I'm getting a headache reading about all these throwback changes.  What the heck is so wrong with having our own rank insignia that - while acknowledging the past - still makes us look unique?

I swear . . . come 2015, the Conservatives are going to be trounced at the polls.  :facepalm:
 

Thompson_JM

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Jim Seggie said:
Including this one. IMO this was unnecessary, as I have said in the past.

:ditto:

while I may be a lowly Corporal.... (or is that L/Cpl soon?) This seems like a ridiculous waste of money to accomplish nothing when we have much better, more important things to put the cash towards....

While I know the CF would hardly mourn my departure, it's stuff like this coupled with some other unit level BS that really makes me just want to say "To hell with this" and hang up the hat....  This isnt the same place I joined 14 years ago.... It feels like it's just sliding down, and I think I'd like to get off before I hit bottom.  :(

 

Franko

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infant said:
Hey 21 signatures is 21 signatures

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/reinstate-pips-and-crowns-for-canadian-army-officers/signatures.html

That has to be a joke.

It's funny that no one in the rank and file was consulted in a vast survey, only a select few from what I hear, and now this regression to the old rank system by people outside of the CF.

I even read a few civy friends of mine on FB are glad that its changing back. When challenged on it as to why its a good idea, after the present system being in place for over 40 years....they couldn't give a decent reason why.

I literally groaned as I read that some CIC friends were happy about putting up pips.

Regards
 

NavyShooter

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cavalryman said:
Hmmm.... WO=Crown.... Major=Crown.... placement on cadpat=same...  I sense a disturbance in the Farce...

I endured this in the UK for 2 weeks...

The fact that the two crowns are distinctly different in size meant that I was much less likely to be mistaken for a Major, and much more likely to be mistaken for a WO2, who wears a similar crown (CSM equiv)....so I got called "SIR" a lot either way...

Explaining to them that I was a Petty Officer First Class (or Army Warrant Officer Equiv) did little to quell this....  *sigh*

 

GnyHwy

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So does this mean that each major unit will have 1 x CWO, which still looks the same, and 1 x RQMS, which looks like an MWO, as well as 4 or 5 WOs, which used to be MWOs, which will now look like our WO, which will still be confused with what they thought looked like a Maj, but did the job of a Staff Sergeant, but is now actually a Sgt Maj that looks like a large Major insignia, but also looks like a small Sgt Maj insignia?  Oh yeah!  That should clear things up. :facepalm:

Perhaps we should remove all confusion and just spell the rank across our chests.

245K eh?  Wait till the opposition prints the total life cycle cost of a few billion(ish) for the next 100 years, and then you'll see a stink.
 

Haggis

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GnyHwy said:
So does this mean that each major unit will have 1 x CWO, which still looks the same, and 1 x RQMS, which looks like an MWO, as well as 4 or 5 WOs, which used to be MWOs, which will now look like our WO, which will still be confused with what they thought looked like a Maj, but did the job of a Staff Sergeant, but is now actually a Sgt Maj that looks like a large Major insignia, but also looks like a small Sgt Maj insignia?

So far (emphasis required) no one has proposed rejigging the NCM ranks in the Army.

So far.
 

Edward Campbell

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Haggis said:
GnyHwy said:
So does this mean that each major unit will have 1 x CWO, which still looks the same, and 1 x RQMS, which looks like an MWO, as well as 4 or 5 WOs, which used to be MWOs, which will now look like our WO, which will still be confused with what they thought looked like a Maj, but did the job of a Staff Sergeant, but is now actually a Sgt Maj that looks like a large Major insignia, but also looks like a small Sgt Maj insignia?
So far (emphasis required) no one has proposed rejigging the NCM ranks in the Army.

So far.


I know I am repeating myself, but:

    1. The existing rank/pay system was not designed for any military reason. It's AIM, back in the mid 1960s, was to address a serious pay/morale problem - and it did. It had a secondary benefit in that it made
        all the other unification/integration changes far more palatable to the rank and file and the junior officers;

    2. There is nothing inherently wrong with the current system but there were, 50 years ago, and still are, in my opinion, some serious flaws with implementation, specifically: promotion to the vital junior
        leadership ranks (corporal and captain) is based, in the main, on trade skill and time in, not on leadership training and or ability;

    3. I perceive, from discussions with Navy and RCAF folks, that the common rank system, which is OK for the Army, is less than ideal for the RCN and RCAF;

    4. We are overdue a comprehensive review of ranks and trades (and trade levels) and the qualifications and pay for both. That review there might provoke a restructuring of the rank and trade/classification
        systems and that, in turn, might provoke some reconsideration of rank badges.

But this is the Government of Canada so the political cart is well out in front of the military horse.
 
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