RANK and IPC on CFR

[timstec]

Here is what I know:

A Sgt/WO when CFR'd will receive the rank of Lt.

A MWO/CWO when CFR'd will receive the rank of Capt.


Obviously you cannot go down in pay.

What I want to know is what is the calculation used to figure out which IPC you will be paid at upon CFR.


thanks in advance guys

 

[garb811]

If this is in regards to you CFRing, I hope you know how to research your own question...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I am hoping you are not a Sgt/WO who is CFRing....

A good place to start your research is CFAO 11-9 COMMISSIONING FROM THE RANKS PLAN.  Specfically, pay particular attention to Annex B.

 

[PO2FinClk]

That CFAO is severely out of date, and other threads in this forum detail this subject matter. Search for SLC/ILQ, CFR and/or PLAR. Also the subject of IPC and determination of pay is covered at length in this very forum and CF publications. Just use the search function.

In short the SLC clause therein is no longer applicable but rather "at the moment" it is PLQ and above with further changes forthcoming.

Incidentally, generally when CWO/MWO's commission, it is not through CFR but rather through tthe Special Commissioning Plan, the DMCA webpage has all the references you need.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

That CFAO is severely out of date, and other threads in this forum detail this subject matter. Search for SLC/ILQ, CFR and/or PLAR. Also the subject of IPC and determination of pay is covered at length in this very forum and CF publications. Just use the search function.

In short the SLC clause therein is no longer applicable but rather "at the moment" it is PLQ and above with further changes forthcoming.

Incidentally, generally when CWO/MWO's commission, it is not through CFR but rather through tthe Special Commissioning Plan, the DMCA webpage has all the references you need.

Its still a CFAO, whatever is published that supersedes it would have to implictly say it supersedes it....if the CFAO is out of date, has that been identified so it is corrected? Perhaps  you have links to the current authorized, published policies that override a CFAO??

 

[timstec]

Thanks for all the info guys.

I had already read the applicable CFAO's, QR&O's etc..

Maybe a Fin clerk can answer my question.

Here is an example of what I am looking for:

eg. WO (1)  when CFR'd will become a LT(3)
      MWO (2) when CFR'd will become a Capt (4)

Someothing to that affect. There MUST be some sort of conversion formula that is used to ensure you do not go down in pay.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

This is a guess from something I've heard before but, I believe you go to the IPC that will put you at the same or closest to the same actual dollar amount you were when you CFR.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I had already read the applicable CFAO's, QR&O's etc..
( . . . )
Someothing to that affect. There MUST be some sort of conversion formula that is used to ensure you do not go down in pay.

I guess your "etc" didn't include Compensation and Benefit Instructions (CBI), specifically CBI 204.04 RATE OF PAY ON PROMOTION.  The "formula" is highlighted.

204.04 – RATE OF PAY ON PROMOTION

204.04(1) (General) The rate of pay on promotion or commission for an officer up to the rank of lieutenant-general and for a non-commissioned member will be based on the rate of pay held prior to promotion. A pay increment higher than basic in the new rank may be determined in accordance with this instruction.

204.04(2) (Application) This instruction applies to officers and non-commissioned members paid under Section 2 and 3 of this Chapter, with the exception of:

(a) officer cadets commissioned to second lieutenant to whom the Direct Entry Officer Plan applies ; and

(b) corporals on appointment to master corporal.

204.04(3) (Rate of pay on promotion) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5), an officer or noncommissioned member shall be paid, on promotion to a higher rank, at the rate of pay established in the applicable CBI which is the greater of:

(a) the basic rate of pay for the member’s new rank and, if applicable, pay level and trade group; or

(b) the rate of pay for the pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group, for the member’s new rank that is nearest to, but at least equal to, the sum of the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to the date of the promotion, plus an amount equal to the difference between the rate of pay established for pay increment 1 and pay increment Basic in the member’s new rank, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank.

(edited to add after reflection)
As an aside, after reviewing your other posts, I get the impression that you may be currently serving as an NCM and are considering commissioning.  If however you had not been able to find the answer to this question on your own (it took me 67 seconds on open internet sources), then I (if I was your CO)  would seriously question your fitness for CFR and most likely would not recommend you.

 

[TDeV]

"There MUST be some sort of conversion formula that is used to ensure you do not go down in pay"

I'm under the impression that pay cannot be decreased without disciplinary action being involved. Let me know if im out-of'er.

 

[timstec]

Thank you for the reference Blackadder1916.

However I do believe your statement afterwards is very simple minded.

Refusing someone's CFR because he/she could not find a reference.

You obviously have not heard of something we call... leadership!  ???

 

[Shamrock]

The specific CBI.

Let us know what you come up with.

 

[armyvern]

Thank you for the reference Blackadder1916.

However I do believe your statement afterwards is very simple minded.

Refusing someone's CFR because he/she could not find a reference.

You obviously have not heard of something we call... leadership!  ???

How about something called "initiative"?? That's a big part of Leadership too you know.

Not being able to find a simple reference in this day and age with all of the electronic wizardry available to us CF members (it's available at work if not available in your home), or failing that - the inability to type "pay level on promotion" into a search bar on a civ website, may certainly tend to lead one to question one's "ability".

What are you going to do the first time a Warrant Officer like me walks into your office after issuing a caution, or tossing IC or RW or C&P paperwork on your desk for action via the CoC? Ask us to find your references for you after we've done our jobs already? Actually scrap that --- the WO would already have the paperwork done up, the references researched and printed, and all your ducks already lined up in a row for you, neatly tucked into a Protected B folder and would actually be giving you a simple "sign here" - perhaps even with a minute sheet (if they're really keen) outlining what the next steps they recommend that YOU take are. You'd best know how to use (ie: have the incentive) "search" and how to "utilize your resources" to make sure we've done our jobs properly --- else it's your signature (and thus you) on the line. That's called "administration" and can also reflect on your "problem solving" and "job knowledge" abilities.

I hope this is making sense for you. Ultimately ... it's your "responsibility" to ensure that we are correct and to research your own information to ensure that what we are providing you is current, accurate and good to go.

Notice that ALL of my quoted words can be found in the performance and potential areas of an NCMs annual PER - that happens to be one of those things that a CO would look at when considering such an NCM for a Commission recommendation.

Just my .02 cents worth.

 

[timstec]

I think SOME of you are a little up-tight!

You guys are telling me that you are perfect soldiers and that you never had to ask anyone anything?

There is something in the army called mentorship. If you know an answer, teach and develop your subordinates. Don't be arogant and try to belittle them.

I thought the whole purpose of this forum was to help shed the light on questions that people might have.

That is my 2 cents... and I am ending it there. Not going to argue with people that lead from behind their computer screens. 

Have a great day, and THANK YOU to the people that DO try to help out in these forums.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

timstec while there is mentorship there is also personal accountibility and as was already stated personal initative. If one of my guys refuses to help himself and relies on everyone to do his/her work for them, do you think they will get far?

 

[PO2FinClk]

Its still a CFAO, whatever is published that supersedes it would have to implictly say it supersedes it....if the CFAO is out of date, has that been identified so it is corrected? Perhaps  you have links to the current authorized, published policies that override a CFAO??

Haven't you heard, CFAO's are being phased in favour of DAOD's and new FAM's? They have not conducted proper CFAO amendments for years, some even over 20 years so doubt very much they would amend this either. Just wait for direction that CDA should be releasing once all the T's are crossed.

And by the way, no it does not need to say it implicitly say it supersedes CFAO's. Ideally it would, however looking at endless changes in policy over the last 20 years it is unfortunately a rarity, rather direction issued by Managing Authorities of the subject matter has become current policy (take the DCBA Aide-Memoire for example).

 

[timstec]

If you would have read my previous post. I did look through the various acts and references.

So the answer slipped in doing so. I'm sorry for not being perfect.

How does that show a lack of initiaive in any way?

 

[armyvern]

I think SOME of you are a little up-tight!

You guys are telling me that you are perfect soldiers and that you never had to ask anyone anything?

There is something in the army called mentorship. If you know an answer, teach and develop your subordinates. Don't be arogant and try to belittle them.

I thought the whole purpose of this forum was to help shed the light on questions that people might have.

That is my 2 cents... and I am ending it there. Not going to argue with people that lead from behind their computer screens. 

Have a great day, and THANK YOU to the people that DO try to help out in these forums.

ANY good leader would tell their subordinates to look up something on their own (they'd even give them directions on HOW to look up the answer they are seeking - EXACTLY as has been done for you here on this site) ... it's how the subordinate learns and gains that experience so that, one day, when that subordinate is a leader themself - they can then do the same for their subordinates. NO leader worth his salt would do the work for the subordinate ... as that does not DEVELOP or TEACH the subordinate anything.

No one here is trying to be "arrogant".

 

[timstec]

Geeez..

I am dancing around the right answer and I just can't pinpoint it.

So I ask for help... and all of a sudden I am not a good leader?

Some of you should brush up on your 12 principles of leadership. And yes... there are 12 now.. not 10.

 

[armyvern]

...

So of you should brush up on your 12 principles of leadership. And yes... there are 12 now.. not 10.

Don't worry about me ... I'm certainly not. 

1) Achieve professional competence and pursue self-improvement

2) Clarify objectives and intent

3) Solve problems; make timely decisions

4) Direct; motivate by persuasion and example and by sharing risks and hardships

5) Train individuals and teams under demanding and realistic conditions

6) Build teamwork and cohesion

7) Keep subordinates informed, explain events and decisions

8 ) Mentor, educate, and develop subordinates

9) Treat subordinates fairly; respond to their concerns, represent their interests

10) Maintain situational awareness; seek information; keep current

11) Learn from experience and those who have experience

12) Exemplify and reinforce the miiltary ethos; maintain order and discipline; uphold professional norms

 

[timstec]

STUDY them...

really hard!