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Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)

Ralph

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Quirky said:
National news networks have been constantly reminding us how racist we all are on a daily basis, because obviously COVID isn't trendy anymore and it's gone away. Out of all the talking heads and think-tanks they provide, none have signalled any thoughts or ideas towards how to fix this issue. All I see are protesters and whiny people holding signs and marching down streets, how this will fix racism I don't know. Being more aware of issues won't change people's minds.

Can't we all just get back to work already??  :waiting:
I see whiny people too.
 

blacktriangle

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Colin P said:
For the Antifa and certain other groups, racism is a purely a tool to beat the establishment and the majority into submission with. They don't care about complex issues or complex solutions.

Absolutely correct.
 

Xylric

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Perhaps the thing that most troubles me about this subject is the tendancy to dismiss the expert when what that expert has to say challenges the dominant narrative. The focus of one of my major anthropology research projects deals with a period of prehistory in which there was no such thing as race (unless you're talking about our species of human and interactions with others - such as Neanderthal), for example. I have made some very honest inquiring statements on a forum not unlike this one based on this particular foundation, and the general reaction I got was "You're a white male. Shut the *#$! up, and let others speak." I could agree with that if I was actually dismissing things, but that's the problem - I wasn't.

The statements I was making was along the lines of pointing out that racism is actually a superficial symptom of the issues at hand- this, I think, can be easily proven. I would think that someone who has been building a model dealing with the evolution and extinction of complex societies would be a welcome voice in discussing matters such as current events, but apparently not. Because of a descriptive quality of the person making the point, the point itself is dismissed as tainted. I can only conclude that the greater the weight put on the labels one could attach to the voice giving information, the less meaning that information will actually have to the substance of the conversation.

There's a significant soft seduction of a quick and easy display of power at play here, and if you may recall what Yoda said about the Dark Side with that particular phrasing.
 

BeyondTheNow

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Quirky said:
National news networks have been constantly reminding us how racist we all are on a daily basis, because obviously COVID isn't trendy anymore and it's gone away. Out of all the talking heads and think-tanks they provide, none have signalled any thoughts or ideas towards how to fix this issue. All I see are protesters and whiny people holding signs and marching down streets, how this will fix racism I don't know. Being more aware of issues won't change people's minds.

Can't we all just get back to work already??  :waiting:

And that, right there, is the issue.

If one can be increasingly exposed to the multitude of pain, frustration, viewpoints, sincere communication (when it applies, obviously), and listen to the description of someone’s existence through their lens rather than one’s own, and feel not even the slightest shift in their own perceptions and/or the ability to be able to apply the fact that everyone’s reality is individual and shaped through any number of experiences, genetics, environment, etc., then it’s no wonder these same cycles reoccur. If minimal coverage of contentious societal matters doesn’t result in changes where required, then what is there left to do? The answer is obvious.

If one is feeling personally attacked by what’s predominantly being displayed on news cycles at any given time, then it’s a clear indication that there’s truth to the message being sent for that individual.
 

Brad Sallows

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People fight for things, and if you don't want to fight over everything with everybody, you need to figure out ways to distinguish in- and out-group.  We inherited thousands of years of that.
 

Xylric

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Brad Sallows said:
People fight for things, and if you don't want to fight over everything with everybody, you need to figure out ways to distinguish in- and out-group.  We inherited thousands of years of that.

Tens of thousands. Co-operation across groups, without adverse triggers, is what I consider the most notable feature of our species. The fact that we are able to compete at the same time we co-operate is something I would love to explain to extraterrestrial xenographers.
 

BeyondTheNow

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Brad Sallows said:
People fight for things, and if you don't want to fight over everything with everybody, you need to figure out ways to distinguish in- and out-group.  We inherited thousands of years of that.

Side note, as I don’t want to derail: I agree, but I’d be interested in you elaborating on any possible ideas you might have wrt “...figure out ways to distinguish...”, and how that may relate to conflict. You’re referring to in/out groups in terms of soc./psychology definitions, correct? The very distinguishing of groups which one prefers to be associated with (or identifies with) is often at the root of conflict. I don’t know that there will ever be any way to successfully lessen societal contentions if we insist on clear distinctions between groups. But at the same time, it’s those distinct groups that help offer us our sense of community, and also with which we feel most closely intertwined; they help form our identities.

Leaning towards the neurological/neuro-science end of things as oppose to the social psychology end, I came across this article and found it interesting. It loosely touches on some primary reasons for why any degree of resolution may be innately difficult for most of us regardless of the nature of the situation. It led to some other interesting reads, but this was the starting point—good introduction.

https://www.mediate.com/articles/noll9.cfm




 

Jarnhamar

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Repost from an earlier link in the US thread.
Edmonton police officer last year.

https://streamable.com/hna3mn

What would happen to a Canadian soldier deployed overseas who was caught on video doing this to a detainee?
What would happen to a Canadian soldier caught doing this to a G7 protestor?



 

Jarnhamar

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https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/man-in-custody-after-shocking-attack-on-toronto-police-officer

Video from May 5th in Toronto. Black man is smashing out windows in a cop car then chases the white female officer around.

At first glance I probably would have shot him. She didn't and probably saved his life and maybe a bunch of drama.

I hope police don't put themselves at undue risk because they're afraid of their police departments not having their back or getting vilified in the news.
 

Quirky

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BeyondTheNow said:
And that, right there, is the issue.

If one can be increasingly exposed to the multitude of pain, frustration, viewpoints, sincere communication (when it applies, obviously), and listen to the description of someone’s existence through their lens rather than one’s own, and feel not even the slightest shift in their own perceptions and/or the ability to be able to apply the fact that everyone’s reality is individual and shaped through any number of experiences, genetics, environment, etc., then it’s no wonder these same cycles reoccur. If minimal coverage of contentious societal matters doesn’t result in changes where required, then what is there left to do? The answer is obvious.

If one is feeling personally attacked by what’s predominantly being displayed on news cycles at any given time, then it’s a clear indication that there’s truth to the message being sent for that individual.

The issue with all these protests, billboards and hashtags is that everyone is yelling, but no one is listening. Want to know how to stop racism? Stop talking about it! Stop referring to people by their race. Enough of the differential treatment of our First Nations, we are still living in the past. How much longer must the reparations and reconciliation go on? When will it be enough?
 

Brad Sallows

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>...figure out ways to distinguish...

Skin colour.  Cultural markings and apparel.  Ways of speaking.  Whenever resources are scarce there is competition, so there must be a way to distinguish "us" from "them", and the easily obvious boundaries will be exploited.  Most people are almost as smart as animals and will not fight for the sake of fighting - too risky.  Competition for resources, or even admissions to Harvard, is the root of most evil.  When people feel security slipping away, the mask will drop.
 

Xylric

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Brad Sallows said:
>...figure out ways to distinguish...

Skin colour.  Cultural markings and apparel.  Ways of speaking.  Whenever resources are scarce there is competition, so there must be a way to distinguish "us" from "them", and the easily obvious boundaries will be exploited.  Most people are almost as smart as animals and will not fight for the sake of fighting - too risky.  Competition for resources, or even admissions to Harvard, is the root of most evil.  When people feel security slipping away, the mask will drop.

Civilization is always, unfortunately, going to be little more than a polite fiction, or, if you're feeling optimistic, a species-wide mutual delusion. There's a quote that I love from Star Trek DS9:

Quark said:
"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people - as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes..."

There are reasons why certain social, political, and yes, religious groups and ideologies ultimately turn cannibalistic, and the biggest is very, very simple - once you define immutable boundries, those boundaries will inevitably run into the reality of life. As life keeps growing, regardless of any petty human rules, it goes without saying that those same groups which don't do the intelligent thing and admit error will inevitably start to prune the group so that everything fits within the boundry - often violently.

The distinguishing descriptive characteristics are ultimately harmless on their own, but you're absolutely correct that the most obvious boundaries are the easiest to exploit. It does often seem to me like the problems are magnified simply because not everyone grasps that descriptions of an object are not definitions of the object. Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
 

quadrapiper

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Colin P said:
For the Antifa and certain other groups, racism is a purely a tool to beat the establishment and the majority into submission with. The don't care about complex issues or complex solutions.
Of course, Antifa as an identifiable agglomeration came about because of a rather simple issue: swastika'd neo-Nazis, KKK, et al cutting about like they owned the place in the US.
 

Ironman118

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quadrapiper said:
Of course, Antifa as an identifiable agglomeration came about because of a rather simple issue: swastika'd neo-Nazis, KKK, et al cutting about like they owned the place in the US.

A distinguishable uniform, matching arm bands, burning books, beating you and threatening you if you have a differing opinion.. includes both fascists and, ironically, the antifa.
 

BeyondTheNow

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Quirky said:
The issue with all these protests, billboards and hashtags is that everyone is yelling, but no one is listening. Want to know how to stop racism? Stop talking about it! Stop referring to people by their race. Enough of the differential treatment of our First Nations, we are still living in the past. How much longer must the reparations and reconciliation go on? When will it be enough?

Where’s the line between what you’re saying and denying someone their ethnicity/heritage? The very reason many feel unacknowledged as equals (either strictly with caucasian society, or the predominant population of where they reside as geography applies) is because of those who refuse to accept that they should be equal and won’t acknowledge that ethnicity shouldn’t be an issue. Not adequately discussing or managing inter-societal complexities doesn’t make them go away. Which is also why seemingly past wounds of historical events resurface.

It’s easy for one who’s never experienced years/decades/generations of side-lining, discrimination, de-humanizing, double-standards, etc. etc. to essentially say, “Get over it already, time to let go and move forward.”, which is the attitude that many retain. That very mentality is at the root of why so many others can’t move forward in their respective growth, because they’ve faced that flippant approach from society wrt traumatic events that, quite literally, altered their DNA. (A quick google search brings up research articles about the correlation between prolonged exposure to trauma and cell-development, which can then be passed through human development.)

As humans, an integral part of healing and being able to release and move forward is the full acknowledgement and continued support (not speaking strictly monetarily) from those surrounding us. When that isn’t maintained consistently, which—let’s face, it hasn’t been—then the marginalized person(s) are left stuck to deal with the fall-out from the past. Additionally, because of the complexities of human nature and development, we all require differing levels of varying types of assistance when attempting to address abuses.

Several forget (or dismiss) the sheer magnitude of physical and psychological effort required from all sides, and the intricacies of both when tackling instances of (often long-lived) societal problems. Additionally, despite what it may look like to outsiders, the majority of those affected by the types of matters we’re discussing aren’t actively choosing to remain where they are—to accept their lot in life, as it were. The problem is that many haven’t been given, or don’t know how to apply the tools necessary to change their circumstances. That’s why social programs and genuine assistance is needed. (Yes, unfortunately, there are those who don’t use the resources provided for good, but that’s a bit of a tangent.)
 

mariomike

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quadrapiper said:
Antifa as an identifiable agglomeration came about because of a rather simple issue: swastika'd neo-Nazis, KKK, et al cutting about like they owned the place in the US.

https://www.google.com/search?q=swastika+charlottesville&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjI1-aZ0fTpAhUO3KwKHU_MDFMQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=swastika+charlottesville&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoGCAAQBxAeOggIABAHEAUQHlD7VVirbGDTb2gAcAB4AIABgAGIAaMGkgEDNS4zmAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWc&sclient=img&ei=LXPfXoiNIY64swXPmLOYBQ&bih=641&biw=1280


To the best of my knowledge, ( someone please correct me if I am wrong ) the swastika has not been paraded in the streets of Toronto since 16 August 1933 .

Our local anti-fascists saw to it that was the first, and last time.

 

Remius

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Quirky said:
The issue with all these protests, billboards and hashtags is that everyone is yelling, but no one is listening. Want to know how to stop racism? Stop talking about it! Stop referring to people by their race. Enough of the differential treatment of our First Nations, we are still living in the past. How much longer must the reparations and reconciliation go on? When will it be enough?

I don’t know.  How long have they been marginalized, abused and treated differently?  Would a couple of of hundred years do? 

The truth is that reconciliation as a concept has only been around since 2012.  How about we give it the effort it merits.

Ignoring racism is probably one of the worst courses of action. Seems like a cop out sort of plan.
 

QV

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Ironman118 said:
A distinguishable uniform, matching arm bands, burning books, beating you and threatening you if you have a differing opinion.. includes both fascists and, ironically, the antifa.

Antifa is anti fascist like North Korea is a democratic republic like today’s LPC is classical liberal. 
 

Quirky

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Remius said:
I don’t know.  How long have they been marginalized, abused and treated differently?  Would a couple of of hundred years do? 

Invoking something racist like the Indian Act isn't helping either.  Integration within Canadian society is ultimately the end goal, I hope. The reserve system is obviously not working for anyone, the days of them living off their traditional lands is long gone. Being completely reliant on the government in isolated communities is not financially sustainable for the FN communities and doesn't help them move forward. Reconciliation is just a word at this point, they haven't indicated what that means.
 

Remius

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Quirky said:
Invoking something racist like the Indian Act isn't helping either.  Integration within Canadian society is ultimately the end goal, I hope. The reserve system is obviously not working for anyone, the days of them living off their traditional lands is long gone. Being completely reliant on the government in isolated communities is not financially sustainable for the FN communities and doesn't help them move forward. Reconciliation is just a word at this point, they haven't indicated what that means.

I don’t disagree with much of that but many of them I am sure have no interest in wanting to integrate unless it’s on their terms.

Here is how the Govt sees it.

https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/1400782178444/1529183710887

Here’s a good summation I think.

https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/what-reconciliation-is-and-what-it-is-not

All of this is more than just a word.  But as indicated, it is complex.



 
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