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Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)

jacksparrow

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Evening.....while this thread is US-Centric, lets not kid ourselves that Canada is any better. Yes the US has over 300 million people compared to our over 30 million people, but the same 'fracture' can be seen once you move out of the major cities i.e. Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Ottawa.

One rhetoric we've heard since this who malarkey started is..."we're not all the same" from the police and the continuous denial of institutional racism. Point in case, premier of Ontario today said this.....

" Doug Ford says Canada doesn’t have the “systemic, deep roots” of racism that the United States does.

Ford was asked today to comment on the protests in cities across the U.S. that were sparked by the death of George Floyd, an unarmed Black man, at the hands of a white police officer in Minneapolis.

Ford, who spent a lot of time in the U.S. for his family’s label business, said the difference between the two countries is that in Canada, people for the most part get along, working and shopping together."
https://globalnews.ca/news/7017967/doug-ford-george-floyd-racism/


How can a Caucasian white male speak on behalf of minorities and what they have to endure from birth all the way till they die? This also plays into that aloofness / denial that such things happen here in Canada.

Take the CAF for example, Operation Honour came about due to a final admittance of a behaviour that has been going on and proven for decades. One doesn't need to be a genius to see that the continuing denial is simply a matter of attempts to evade wrong doing and acceptance of daily facts that minorities are going through. I mean to use a different analogy, Ford's comments is akin to a man pretending to know what women go through during pregnancy.

The majority also has to quit telling minorities "they have a chip on their shoulder" or " they're playing the race card"...these are idiotic comments someone with a privilege will utter as defence mechanisms, to shutdown ignorant behaviours. While everyone will agree that all lives matter, you have to ask yourself...if this was the case all along and all citizens regardless of their colour creed or gender truly got treated the same, we won't have Black Lives Matter. Cops that keep saying they have a few bad apples, the question to those departments, what are you the good apples doing to root out these bad apples bringing shame to your departments????? Clearly sweet F'all! Instead what you get is cover up like suspension with pay, only to bring the people back for them to do it all over again and again. Chavin had 18 complaints again, 18 and he somehow was still allowed to patrol the streets.

Oh...lets not pretend this isn't happening in the Military as well, and the way this usually ends is with a mbr being ostracized, bypassed for opportunities like deployments or dinged with the PER system. Well of course it's always going to be hard for someone to claim their PER is not justified because of payback for an incident relating to a race issue. It's always going to be advantageous for an organization to have a diverse group of people, and by diverse I don't mean male/female, to better have a well diverse opinion and perspectives, this way you're better poised for any international engagements, or dealing with other diverse organizations.

I can't say I'm surprised by the story in the link below. Many other similar stories emerging of people turning this into a thing

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/ep4xdm/canada-border-services-fires-employee-after-racist-video-mocks-george-floyd?utm_source=vicecanadafbca&utm_medium=social
 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=jacksparrow]

How can a Caucasian white male speak on behalf of minorities [/quote]

Easy.

The same way Trudeau, a caucasian male, can speak on behalf of Canadians when he's leading a minority government without winning the most votes. The same way Trudeau can lecture us about racism when he's run around wearing blackface.

- Staff edit to comply with forum rules
 

dimsum

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Jarnhamar said:
But more flushed out, how can Trudeau, a caucasian  male (who paraded around in blackface) speak on behalf of Canadians when he's leading a minority government without winning the most votes? Let alone lecture us about racism?

What exactly would you have him do?

If he didn't say anything about this on behalf of Canadians, he would be vilified as supporting racism or at least not speaking out against it as the PM of a country (minority govt or not).  If he gets one of his visible minority cabinet members (say the MND), then he would be vilified as "the issue wasn't important enough for the PM to comment". If he does, then he's vilified as being a rich white male. 

 

jacksparrow

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So, this is all you took away from my post above ignoring the more important points? Yeah, Like Maya Angelou said "when someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time!

Jarnhamar said:
Easy.

The same way Trudeau, a caucasian male, can speak on behalf of Canadians when he's leading a minority government without winning the most votes. The same way Trudeau can lecture us about racism when he's run around wearing blackface.

- Staff edit of quote to comply with forum rules
 

Jarnhamar

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Dimsum said:
What exactly would you have him do?
Stepping down would be nice.

But I agree he's going to be criticized whatever he does. One of those "can't win" situations.

Still, it would be a less eye rolling if his anti-racism spiel wasn't preceded by this.

trudeau-blackface-credit-The-Sun-1068x639.jpg

42ca7418-db09-11e9-80eb-3aa57b6d2433_image_hires_052010.jpg


 

Bruce Monkhouse

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jacksparrow said:
How can a Caucasian white male speak on behalf of minorities and what they have to endure from birth all the way till they die? This also plays into that aloofness / denial that such things happen here in Canada.
I would guess the same way you can think that I, and my family, are racist without even knowing us.


 

jacksparrow

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Please point out where I accused you and your family of this? We're not here to guess or make assumptions. Assumptions as we continue to see causes lives.

Bruce Monkhouse said:
I would guess the same way you can think that I, and my family, are racist without even knowing us.
 

Jarnhamar

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jacksparrow said:
So, this is all you took away from my post above ignoring the more important points? Yeah, Like Maya Angelou said "when someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time!

Trudeau definitely showed us who he really is. But you probably meant me right? If so sure.

Ford was asked questions, and answered, and then you ask how he can even answer as a white male. Well, should he have just stared blankly at the person asking the question? It's the same situation as Trudeau, as Dimsum wisely pointed out.  Criticized if you answer, criticized if you don't. 

 

Bruce Monkhouse

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jacksparrow said:
Please point out where I accused you and your family of this? We're not here to guess or make assumptions. Assumptions as we continue to see causes lives.

jacksparrow said:
,lets not kid ourselves that Canada is any better.

I'm Canadian....
 

mariomike

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These race discussions remind me of what they told us probies 48 years ago. ( on my full-time job ),

"You come from a society with many prejudices. We won't try to change your beliefs. But, if you treat anyone with disrespect, we will change your employment."

They did too.  :)

 

jacksparrow

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So lying about the real state of affairs is the best course of action when asked the question, and something you will suggest if you were part of his PR team? The last person that tried to deflect a similar question i.e. General Lawson, we know what happened to him and what led to Operation Honour.

I bet you the CAF male high ups, and even most junior members will never claim to know what female members go through, only a buffoon will claim otherwise or accuse female members of playing a gender card.


Jarnhamar said:
Trudeau definitely showed us who he really is. But you probably meant me right? If so sure.

Ford was asked questions, and answered, and then you ask how he can even answer as a white male. Well, should he have just stared blankly at the person asking the question? It's the same situation as Trudeau, as Dimsum wisely pointed out.  Criticized if you answer, criticized if you don't.
 

jacksparrow

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So am I...I fail to see your point???? However, if you're sincerely telling me that you have zero tolerance for discrimination and see every human regardless of colour as humans and treat them as such, then you and I are singing from the same hymn book are we good.

Bruce Monkhouse said:
I'm Canadian....
 

jacksparrow

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I subscribe to that and as we speak, social media has been busy rooting out despicable humans getting them fired. The Canadian girl in central park with the dog was fired for lying to the cops about a black African american man threatening her because he told her to put her dog on a leash.

Canadian border services just fired an employee. We're going to see a whole lot more of these because racists just can't help themselves, and they are usually not the smartest tools in the box.

mariomike said:
These race discussions remind me of what they told us probies 48 years ago. ( on my full-time job ),

"You come from a society with many prejudices. We won't try to change your beliefs. But, if you treat anyone with disrespect, we will change your employment."

They did too.  :)
 

Jarnhamar

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jacksparrow said:
So lying about the real state of affairs is the best course of action when asked the question, and something you will suggest if you were part of his PR team?

Ford was asked his opinion and he gave it. He doesn't think Canada has the same systemic, deep roots of racism that the US does.
I'm inclined to agree, at least from a military point of view. US bases still have kitchens where "the blacks" go to eat. Same thing with other establishments (gym). I've never seen that on Canadian bases. Maybe he's missing something (and me too).
Am I lying about it (my opinion)? Hardly.

The last person that tried to deflect a similar question i.e. General Lawson, we know what happened to him and what led to Operation Honour.
I'm unfamiliar with that. What happened to him?

 

mariomike

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See also,

Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/315.0
16 pages.
 

Remius

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I took Ford’s answer the same way.  And trust me I’m not a Ford fan (although lately I’m liking him more and more).

Ever been to South Carolina?  It’s like another world there in another time.  I have family and have been there several times.

But yes.  I’ve been born privileged in that I have never been harassed or had issues because of the colour of my skin.  I’ve been harassed for being French though, more often when I was a kid.  Actually untrue.  I accidentally walked into a black bar in South Carolina with my brother and we were told we weren’t welcome.  We apologized and said we didn’t know and said we weren’t from around those parts.  When they found out we were Canadian they invited us to stay.  The bartender was an ex CFL player who came up to play for the Blue Bombers.  Had a great afternoon and funny story to tell.

Do we have a problem here with race?  Yup.  I don’t think it will ever go away but it can be better.  But the problems in the US are far worse.
 

Brad Sallows

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Ford is correct, but not in a good way since it is only a matter of how his chiefly-cited remark is literally interpreted.  Canada has slightly different "systemic, deep roots" of racism than the US.

Racism against blacks was and is found mostly in the easternmost parts of Canada.  In BC, racism against people from Asia featured more strongly than in other parts of Canada, but is probably eroding faster than most other kinds of racism.  Racism against non-British whites is almost extinct.  Racism against aboriginals I would be expect to find to be widespread.  While the patterns of racism against all groups except maybe black might resemble what is found in the US (eg. anti-Asian on the westcoast, anti-aboriginal throughout), racism against blacks is at a level of extremity well above what I observe in Canada.
 

jacksparrow

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So, my your account, just because in the CAF all mbrs sit together and eat, that means there is no racism? I like how you managed to avoid my Operation Honour point though.

Ford as the Premier of a province should NOT be making outlandish false comments, when he has lived the privilege life and continues to do.

Bottom line is, if you don't walk in minorities shoes on a daily basis, you can't claim to know what they go through. One thing we also hear a lot is people making convenience comments like "I've got lots of Black/Asian friends, I can't be racist"! There is a difference between acquaintances / work colleagues, and friends that you actually invite to your home and who get to meet your family.

Again, just one of those false comments to deflect away from ignorance when being accused of racism.

Military doesn't have Unions like the police which tends to go above and beyond to help cover up acts by dirty cops, and keep them employed.


Jarnhamar said:
Ford was asked his opinion and he gave it. He doesn't think Canada has the same systemic, deep roots of racism that the US does.
I'm inclined to agree, at least from a military point of view. US bases still have kitchens where "the blacks" go to eat. Same thing with other establishments (gym). I've never seen that on Canadian bases. Maybe he's missing something (and me too).
Am I lying about it (my opinion)? Hardly.
I'm unfamiliar with that. What happened to him?
 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=jacksparrow]
So, my your account, just because in the CAF all mbrs sit together and eat, that means there is no racism?[/QUOTE]
Yea that's clearly exactly what I said.

I like how you managed to avoid my Operation Honour point though
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?

Ford as the Premier of a province should NOT be making outlandish false comments, when he has lived the privilege life and continues to do.

What were the outlandish comments you took issue with? That he thinks most Canadians work together, shop together and get along?
That he doesn't think Canada has the same systemic deep rooted racism the US does?


 

jacksparrow

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In the same breathe...there is no sexual misconduct right? I think you need to actually speak to CAF minorities and get a true accurate picture of what they experience, rather than make assumptions based on people sitting together and eating.


Jarnhamar said:
Yea that's clearly exactly what I said.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?


What were the outlandish comments you took issue with? That he thinks most Canadians work together, shop together and get along?
That he doesn't think Canada has the same systemic deep rooted racism the US does?
 
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