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Ptes attending PLQ

Sig_Des

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CANLANDGEN 007/05
221822Z NOV 05
SUBJ: PLQ (L) SUP - AUTHORITY TO LOAD PTES
REFS: A. CANLANDGEN 023/03 27 1405Z OCT 03
B. CFAO 49-4 PARA 4
C. CFAO 49-4 ANNEX B
D. A-PD-002 PLQ/PC-H12 DATED 09 JAN 04 (QS)
E. ADM (HR-MIL) INSTR 01/04 DATED 11 JAN 04
F. 4640-11 (550NCM PD) DATED 20 JAN 05
G. DAOD 5031-2
1. THIS MESSAGE ADDRESSES THE AUTHORIZATION TO LOAD PTES ON PLQ(L) WHICH ALSO INCLUDES THE PLQ(INF) CRSE. IT IS SUPPLEMENTAL TO REF A.
2. CURRENTLY, THE ARMY IS EXPERIENCING MCPL SHORTFALS IN CERTAIN MOCS SPECIFICALLY WITHIN CERTAIN REGTS OF THE INF, WITH THE IMPACT OF TRANSFORMATION AND FORCE EXPANSION, IT IS POSSIBLE THAT OTHER MOCS WILL ALSO EXPERIENCE DIFFICULTY IN PRODUCING SUFFICIENT JR LDRS.
3. WITH THE INTRODUCTION OF CURRENT GENERATION OF ARMY JUNIOR LEADERSHIP COURSES, PLQ(L) AND PLQ(INF), A RESTRICTION ON LOADING OF PTES ON MODS 5 AND 6 WAS ENACTED IAW REFS D AND CFM AT REF A. THIS POLICY HAS ALSO HAD THE EFFECT OF DELAYING THE COMPLETION OF LEADERSHIP TRAINING TO THE MEMBERS FIFTH YR OF SVC AS A MIN, WITH THE FUTURE GROWTH DEMANDS, IT IS ASSESSED THAT THE MIN OF FIVE YEARS WOULD LIMIT THE ARMY.
4. DLPM HAS CFM THAT THE PROVISIONS OF DAPS REMAIN IN EFFECT BUT THIS OPTION PROMOTING SELECTED PTES/CPLS TO MCPLS HAS LAPSED AS A RESULT OF THE RESTRICTIONS OF NOT BEING ABLE TO LOAD PTES ON JR LEADERSHIP CRSES.
5. THE FOLLOWING ARE THE DAPS CRITERIA:
A. APPLIES TO ARTY, ARMD, INF, CBT ENGR, LINEMAN AND RAD OP TRADES
B. THE MOCS CURRENT MERIT LIST MUST BE EXHAUSTED
C. PTE TO MPCL - MIN 3 YRS IN SVC AND LESS THAN 4 YRS AND PLQ QUAL
D. CPL-MCPL - MIN 1 YR IN RK BUT LESS THAN 2 AND PLQ QUAL
6. IN RESPONSE TO A REQ FROM THE ARMY, CDA HAS GRANTED THE AUTHORITY TO WAVE THE RANK PRE-REQUISITES FOR LOADING PERSONNEL ON ARMY JUNIOR LEADERSHIP CRSES. THIS AUTHORIZATION WILL REMAIN IN EFFECT UNTIL 30 JUN 07.
7. IAW GUIDELINES AT REF E, UNIT COMMANDING OFFRS OF DAPS ELIGIBLE MOCS ARE AUTH TO SELECT PTES WITH STRONG LEADERSHIP POTENTIAL TO ATTEND AND COMPLETE MODS 5 AND 6 OF PLQ(L) OR PLQ(INF) CRSES. SELECTED PTES MUST SATISFY THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA:
A. BE RECOMMENDED BY UNIT CO
B. BE ELIGIBLE FOR DAPS PROMOTION IAW REF C
C. SATISFY ALL CRSE PRE-REQS INCL IPSW CRSE FOR INF CANDIDATES
D. MUST HAVE COMPLETED MODS 1-4 OF PLQ(L) AND
E. MUST HAVE SERVED A MIN OF 24 MONTHS SVC
8. THE CRITERIA APPLY EQUALLY TO REG AND RES SOLDIERS. BY VIRTUE OF 24 MONTHS OF SVC CRITERIA, AND FACT THAT THIS DATE COINCIDES WITH RESERVE TIME IN RK PROMOTION CRITERIA, RESERVE SOLDIERS WILL BE CPLS WHEN THEY ARE ELIGIBLE TO COMMENCE MOD 5 AND MOD 6 PLQ TRG. RES CPLS WHO ARE PLQ(L) QUAL ARE ELIGIBLE FOR DAPS FROM CPL TO MCPL AFTER ONE YR IN RK.
9. AITA WILL CONSOLIDATE A LIST OF PTES ON EACH PLQ SER BY NAME/MOC/UNIT/REGT AND FWD TO DAT EQUIVALENCIES NCO FOR TRACKING PURPOSES. THERE IS NO REQR TO STAFF WAIVERS FOR EACH PTE PLQ CANDIDATE TO ATTEND MOD 5 OR MOD 6 CRSES.
10. THE LFDTS/DAT/DAT POINT OF CONTACT FOR THIS POLICY IS LFDTS/DAT 5-7 MAJ J. SPENCE CSN 271-4821 OR TO PLQ(L) DESK OFFICER, CWO PJ WHELAN CSN 271-5300.
SIGNED LGEN JHPM CARON, CHIEF OF THE LAND STAFF

What are everyone's thoughts on this...Ptes on PLQ?
 

Michael OLeary

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Ever hear of the DAPS program?

Delegated Accelerated Promotion System - 1980s

COs could place a Pte on JLC/ISCC and then approve their promotion/appointment direct to MCpl once qualified.

I remember a time when some troops felt that anyone who couldn't make MCpl before they were promoted to Cpl were below par.

In fact, it's still possible:

CFAO 49-4 -- CAREER POLICY NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS REGULAR FORCE
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-04_e.asp

ANNEX B -- ACCELERATED PROMOTION

GENERAL

1. A CO may nominate for accelerated promotion members with outstanding ability, leadership, or supervisory potential. Accelerated promotion to Cpl must be in recognition of demonstrated outstanding performance as a tradesperson, whereas nomination for accelerated appointment to MCpl or above must also recognize leadership potential. A Pte may be nominated for accelerated promotion to Cpl or appointment to MCpl but a member of the rank of Cpl or above may be nominated for accelerated promotion only to the next higher rank, including appointment to MCpl.
 
J

jmackenzie_15

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How do we feel about it? Its already a reality in the reserve world.

Im course loaded to begin PLQ on the 20th of December, and im just due to be promoted to Corporal any day now.
From my company, there is myself, another guy who got in on the same bmq I did, one corporal about 3 years, and 5 privates who just finished BIQ in august.

But what can you do when the regiment has a massive shortage of corporals? My company has like 30 privates, 4 corporals, 2 master corporals and 2 sergeants, and already 12 new recruits.... 26 of the 30 privates just finished course in august. What other option does anyone have? There really isnt one, and on the bright side, the young privates cant come out the other end of the course any worse of a soldier and in all likelihood they could learn quite a bit.
 

Sig_Des

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Mack674 said:
How do we feel about it? Its already a reality in the reserve world.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a bad idea, and may actually be doing my PLQ this summer in Shilo.

Generally with the PLQ (L) that's run at the Com Res School, people who successfully pass the course teach one of the basics at the school as soon as they're done.

I know Ptes hav been loaded previously, I was wondering what people thought of the idea, and then I saw the CANLANDGEN
 

Pikache

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^Perhaps they'll know more, but do they have the ability to 'lead' at the end of PLQ?

You gotta know how to be a private before you know how to be a corporal or a master corporal.
BIQ taught you the basic skills needed to be a private. Only experience and time in will teach how to be an effective private.
 
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jmackenzie_15

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RoyalHighlandFusilier said:
^Perhaps they'll know more, but do they have the ability to 'lead' at the end of PLQ?

You gotta know how to be a private before you know how to be a corporal or a master corporal.
BIQ taught you the basic skills needed to be a private. Only experience and time in will teach how to be an effective private.

Oh im completely in agreement, but how do you make a bad situation less bad?

the fact of the matter is, the company must send x number of soldiers to fill the PLQ course load and the only troops we have are privates.

We have enough of the right guys currently to keep our heads above water.... there arent any of these young guys who literally just got here leading anybody around yet, but we're one guy getting out or going on call out/regF away from having that happen.

Gotta start somewhere, and I dont like it either.
 
J

jmackenzie_15

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75% of the guys we send on PLQ never go anywhere, they just need to fill the quota.

Thats still the idea... we just dont have the manpower. But hey, if a private or two comes out the other end and did really well and we struck oil somewhere, then all the better.

Like I said, they cant come out any worse. My only fear is that guys start getting bumped up and promoted simply out of a total lack of MCpls.

Another company in my battallion was run strictly against that policy for years... the last 2 years they havnt had any master corporals and refuse to promote or recommend anyone to be promoted that doesnt fit the bill.

Its a tough situation but what else can you do about it other than send the ptes on PLQ and hope for the best?
 

PhilB

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I think that this is utter bs for several reasons.
1) there is no "quota". A unit is allocated positions on a course, it is not a requirment to send someone. If they are unable to fill the slot the position gets sourced to other units.
2) It is bad for other, experienced, troops on that course. The experienced soldiers end up carrying these relativly new privates through the course.
3) Although having the course isnt a gurantee for promotion, if units are desperate enough to send these troops on the course I dont see their leafs being withheld for that long
4) Shitty leaders breed shitty troops. This is just the start of a viscous downward spiral.
5) Inexperienced troops get less out of the course. They do not have the experience to completely understand what is being taught on the course.

Sorry rant off. I know there are going to be a lot of differed opinion on this topic, just my 2 cents
 
J

jmackenzie_15

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PhilB said:
I think that this is utter bs for several reasons.
1) there is no "quota". A unit is allocated positions on a course, it is not a requirment to send someone. If they are unable to fill the slot the position gets sourced to other units.
Thats exactly my point. The units around here are competitive, and our higher ups would rather send ptes on the course than lose the spots on the next go around.
2) It is bad for other, experienced, troops on that course. The experienced soldiers end up carrying these relativly new privates through the course.
Yup. It blows. Whats the alternative?
3) Although having the course isnt a gurantee for promotion, if units are desperate enough to send these troops on the course I dont see their leafs being withheld for that long
Think again.In my unit, just because you have mod 5 and 6 doesn't mean a thing. If you don't perform, you don't get promoted. 95% of the time, that's been the case since ive been here.
4) Shitty leaders breed shitty troops. This is just the start of a viscous downward spiral.
Absolutely, but we still do have a few good leaders, just barely enough to keep everything above water... ideally, these guys stick around long enough to be replaced, and we arent forced to put someone in charge who has no idea what theyre doing.Ideally
5) Inexperienced troops get less out of the course. They do not have the experience to completely understand what is being taught on the course.
Of course, but they at least learn something. Would you instead of sending brand new out of the box fresh privates, send nobody?

Im not arguing with you guys. Its a shitty situation, but there isnt much you can do about it. We can't make wine out of water.
 

Infanteer

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Nothing wrong with aiming for a "fuhrerheer"....
 

Jarnhamar

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You gotta know how to be a private before you know how to be a corporal or a master corporal.

Ahmen.

There are some privates who can get out there who do the course without any problems. I've even seen them get top candidate. There are just some reallly good privates out there.

As a rule though I think you should only send corporals. And not just send someone who wants a few months class B or volentell them to go, I'm talking about soldiers who ASK for the course.

Soldiers NEED to know how to be a good private before jumping into a leader position. The same way they need to know how to be a good corporal before they are a leader. You can see it when you train with them. They have the book smarts to teach classes and their dressed nice but the minute they have to rely on any experienced their screwed- because they have none. They lack the confidence of being around a while and making mistakes.
How can you stand infront of a class and say "In my experience" with 2 or 3 years in the army.

The rank of corporal is given out WAY to easily (in the reserves) to the point where corporals are lacking some very serious basic soldiering skills.

good thread.
 

GerryCan

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You have an excellent point there Ghost. It is hard for troops to want to listen to a guy with just a little more time in than them, and with maybe the same amount of experience. But in that sense, a lot of it is all about right place, at the right time, as with any army course. We send a lot of ptes on PLQ. Some of which may not be the best suited, but along the way may pick up one or two really good abilities, thus improving them as a soldier over-all. Or they may never let any of it sink in and stay a cpl forever, either way i don't think it's a bad idea to send Ptes on the course. I think a Pte can go on a leadership course and use the skills they learn on it in other areas than just leading, maybe it will even boost their confidence and make them want to lead, who knows. Again like what was already said, it doesn't mean they're moving straight to MCpl once they pass the course.
 

shaboing

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i'm a pte in the res and i'm thinking about starting my leadership courses next summer. personally i think its a golden opportunity for pte's that can handle a leadership position, obviously its not everyones ability to be a natural leader but i know some people have it. i dont believe that sending privates who aren't going to get anything from the situation or arent going to step into the leadership roles when they get back. however there are cpl's that are exactly the same way.... i have been in the army for a year now and there are still plenty of cpl's out there that arent the greatest troops and people fresh off my biq/dp1 inf/whatever they are gonna call it tomorrow are better soldiers. thats about all i can think of at the moment, head cold effecting my point thinking up, haha, i will add more if i think of it
 

PteCamp

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I'm a reservist, and after reading this I'm not really sure about how I feel about Ptes going on their PLQ.
I know some people just have that "natural" ability to lead, but there are also some people who are severely lacking at it, and I think it Ptes its hard to tell which one you are so early on in your career. As a Pte you don't get much of a chance to show and grow your leadership abilities. I know as a new Cpl sometimes it's even hard. I know PLQ helps teach you leadership skills, but somethings just can't be taught and are something you just either know or don't. Every leader is different, but I don't think a PLQ course is going to be particularly useful for Ptes.
 
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jmackenzie_15

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I can't see many privates who only have like, 7 months - a year in could be very successful ...

A PLQ course is supposed to make leaders out of already experienced troops who are ready and willing to take the next step... you have to learn to crawl before you can walk or run, and most of the guys going on this course are barely out of diapers. Theyre all gung ho and think they are totall capable of being a MCpl....

"Do you even know how to set up an arctic tent?"
".... whats an arctic tent? A mod tent?"

"You don't even have any QL4s...."
"What's a QL4?"

Seriously.... im not criticizing any of these guys' ability to perform, and in a few years some of these guys will probobly be pretty good, but the fact of the matter is that if you just learned how to play yesterday, you can't be team captain, im sorry.
 

PJ D-Dog

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This is an interesting thread.

I was a private when I attended my block 1 CLC and then a year later, I went to the block 2 as a Cpl.   By the time I finished the CLC, I had two and half years time in service and had been on numerous exercises and felt that I had a fair bit of experience.   I did not excel at the block 2 although I was able to get through it without any major difficulties.   I can't say that I learned much about leadership though.   I am told today's curriculum is far better at teaching leadership attributes and techniques than back in 1991/92.   One thing the CLC taught me was that I needed a lot more book knowledge and even more practical experience in order to graduate in the top ten per cent or to be an effective leader.   I then took it upon myself to get the knowledge and get the experience since I didn't want to be one of those other MCpls who didn't have a clue....20 year-old MCpls who left their brains home who thought wearing the leaf exhonorated them of all failings.

I am of the opinion that Privates' with less than two years in should not be sent to a leadership course.   Just becuase they are keen, good shooters and can dig a trench in record time does not constitute the ability to lead troops.   Units should exercise careful screening of candidates for leadership training.   Unfortunately, many units just want to fill the vacancies while others feel pressed to get their people promoted   due to a lack of MCpls.   This is dangerous to both the morale and junior leadership of the unit.

I had the unfortunate pleasure of having to work for and deal with a product of the accelerated Pte to MCpl in two years type.   The soldier in question was keen, book smart, great dress and deportment but just did not have the leadership ability needed to look after his troops or his gear.   The effect of this was disastrous.   No one wanted to work for him and no other MCpls wanted to work with him.   After a few years, the unit was having difficulty with his performance, and so, being at the right place at the right time, he was promoted to Sgt.   The storie could go on forever.   He eventually was pressured to get out of the reserves, partially through his own will and partially through the rest of us making sure his every screw up was reported to the highest authority in the unit.   It took nearly six years to get rid of this guy but the damage to the unit was done.   We lost an awful lot of good soldiers due to his inability to lead effectively.

While on the CLC block 2, we had a few Privates who we had to carry through while one or two others were golden children that everyone loved.   It's been my experience that many of those who moved up fast, didn't have the staying power of others.   Five years and then they're out.   This leaves the unit with a leadership experience gap and thus begins the vicious cycle of fast promotions and a fast exit.

I've seen some of the same things in the Marines.   A devil dog with nine months time in service promoted merritoriously to Cpl (like a junior MCpl) because he can shoot good, run fast, can spew out Marine Corps knowledge faster than a broadband modem but with no man management ability or life experience to back him up.   After four years, they get out thinking they achieved greatness but in fact they were only able to play the system.   Experience and maturity is everything when it comes to leadership.

You can't teach leadership in a 8 or 10 week course.   You can only give them the tools for their tool box.   Leadership is developed over time and time equals experience.

Ask yourself this question before recommending a young private to a leadership course:   Would you want to follow him into combat and trust his judgement to get you through the battle?

PJ D-Dog
 

buzgo

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We have a hard enough time getting people on the PLQ BEFORE they are MCpls in my trade, now they are going to make it HARDER by filling them up with privates? Seriously, I haven't seen too many cpls go on the PLQ lately...

Mabye this will work for the infantry, but I would be concerned that it may 'weaken' the chain of command.
 

Jay4th

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I met a REAL junior leader the other day.  A 24 year old US Army Sgt with 2 tours in Afghan and 2 in Iraq.  He has the experience to be an NCO at that young age.  NO reserve Pte and no Reg pte can compete.  We have all seen what happens when you send young inexperienced Ptes on leadership courses. They DO get promoted, we do have to work for them, and everything they know about leading they learned from Full Metal Jacket.  If anyone needs lil old me I'll be be in an old quonset hut out of sight out of mind called:
" The CPL 4th center for obscure weapon systems that no one remembers anymore."  BTW I have no JLC and I am pouting.
 
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