PM Chretein did all right by us

[cphansen]

He kept us out of IRAQ and later developments are showing the WMD hysteria were based upon a lie. Not by the Americans but one person an Iraq chemical engineer.

Take a look at the article at http://www.military.com/news/article/source-of-iraq-wmd-claim-admits-he-lied.html?ESRC=eb.nl

One man, not even an elected representative, was responsible for the loss of 100, 000 lives

I do not agree with some of the things the little guy from Shawigian did, but I am grateful to him for saving many lives and keeping the honour of the Canadian Armed Forces intact

 

[ModlrMike]

... keeping the honour of the Canadian Armed Forces intact

Not even close!

 

[Sythen]

He kept us out of IRAQ and later developments are showing the WMD hysteria were based upon a lie. Not by the Americans but one person an Iraq chemical engineer.

Take a look at the article at http://www.military.com/news/article/source-of-iraq-wmd-claim-admits-he-lied.html?ESRC=eb.nl

One man, not even an elected representative, was responsible for the loss of 100, 000 lives

I do not agree with some of the things the little guy from Shawigian did, but I am grateful to him for saving many lives and keeping the honour of the Canadian Armed Forces intact

So toppling one of the worst regime's in the world, offering a different path to freedom and happiness (regardless of whether the locals chose that path) would definitely tarnish the honour of the Canadian Forces? Regardless of the original reasons for invasion, it was the correct path.

I would (and have) happily go to war on a "what if" that threatened Canada. No terrorist attacks happened here. So all this time people have been lieing to keep us at war in Afghanistan saying we fight them there so they don't come here, right? Maybe if we all bury our heads in the sand everything will turn out fine.

EDIT: Just editing to add that though I awarded you 300 points, it was meant to be a deduction. My failure to pay attention to detail.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

He kept us out of IRAQ and later developments are showing the WMD hysteria were based upon a lie. Not by the Americans but one person an Iraq chemical engineer.

Take a look at the article at http://www.military.com/news/article/source-of-iraq-wmd-claim-admits-he-lied.html?ESRC=eb.nl

One man, not even an elected representative, was responsible for the loss of 100, 000 lives

I do not agree with some of the things the little guy from Shawigian did, but I am grateful to him for saving many lives and keeping the honour of the Canadian Armed Forces intact

I'm going to suggest that keeping us out of Iraq was less to do with Bush and the war and more to do with the Oil for Food Scandal and Totalfina Petroleum. You will find that Power Corporation and Andre Desmarais (Chretien's son in law) in which Chretien and Martin are both heavily involved, were at the centre of the whole mess.

http://www.bcrevolution.ca/un_oil_money.htm
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/001306.html
http://www.primetimecrime.com/contributing/2005/20050120Gray.htm
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Power+Corporation+and+Iraq's+oil-for-food+scandal.-a0130564526

There's tons more out there to read also. Just Google Oil for Food Power Corporation.

You can idolize the "Little Thug de Shawinigan" all you want but you won't convince me staying out of Iraq had anything to do with his saving either the lives, or honour, of CF personnel. It was all about greed for him and his corporate bosses.

 

[fraserdw]

I'm going to suggest that keeping us out of Iraq was less to do with Bush and the war and more to do with the Oil for Food Scandal and Totalfina Petroleum. You will find that Power Corporation and Andre Desmarais (Chretien's son in law) in which Chretien and Martin are both heavily involved, were at the centre of the whole mess.


You can idolize the "Little Thug de Shawinigan" all you want but you won't convince me staying out of Iraq had anything to do with his saving either the lives, or honour, of CF personnel. It was all about greed for him and his corporate bosses.

Beat me to it, Jean Creeptan "skills" are the creepest since Sir John A!  How many hours do you have in the military anyway?

 

[jollyjacktar]

I hate him more than Trudeau, I would not piss on him even if he was a dead Taliban.  That's how low he is in my esteem.

 

[aesop081]

keeping the honour of the Canadian Armed Forces intact

:rofl:

Oh, wait. You're serious..........

 

[cphansen]

So toppling one of the worst regime's in the world, offering a different path to freedom and happiness (regardless of whether the locals chose that path) would definitely tarnish the honour of the Canadian Forces? Regardless of the original reasons for invasion, it was the correct path.

I would (and have) happily go to war on a "what if" that threatened Canada. No terrorist attacks happened here. So all this time people have been lieing to keep us at war in Afghanistan saying we fight them there so they don't come here, right? Maybe if we all bury our heads in the sand everything will turn out fine.

EDIT: Just editing to add that though I awarded you 300 points, it was meant to be a deduction. My failure to pay attention to detail.

Please reread my original post what I daid was it was all based on a lie by one individual. That lie cost 100,000 lives Iraq and US and their allies.

I am grateful that we managed to keep out of that quagmire. You also forgot all the Canadians murdered on 9-11. The perpetuator was tracked down to Afghanistan and the Taliban, the government at that time, was asked to extradite him but refused saying they supported him. In my view that is an acceptable reason to go to war to prevent more attacks resulting in Canadian deaths.

With the Taliban out of government, there have been no more attacks, but I think there has been a lot of hostilities built up and it will be a long time before Afghanistan is at peace.

And no I do not idolize the little guy from Shawingan, he did a lot of harm to the CAF but he also saved a lot of Canadian lives for whatever reason he kept us out, he kept us out. And then to learn the invasion of Iraq based upon WMD was based on a deliberate lie, he may have had more luck than he deserved

 

[Fishbone Jones]

SherH2A,

I just have to ask. What kind of cheap booze or drugs brought on these crazy, other world fantasies anyway?

And what made you post this out of no where?  ;D

j\k

 

[cphansen]

Beat me to it, Jean Creeptan "skills" are the creepest since Sir John A!  How many hours do you have in the military anyway?

In the militia from 1963 to 1972

 

[Sythen]

Please reread my original post

ok

PM Chretein did all right by us

No, he did us no favours by keeping us out of Iraq.

but I am grateful to him for saving many lives and keeping the honour of the Canadian Armed Forces intact

He didn't save any lives. As you've already stated, 100 000 lives were lost in Iraq. Fighting evil would not tarnish my honour, or that of my Regiment either. Even if from the start it was widely known that there were no WMD's, and former President Bush's nose grew an inch every time he said it, I would still have gladly fought in Iraq under the Canadian flag. How did MLK say it? Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere?

People like to use the term "World Police" as a pejorative word. I don't see it as a bad thing. I see suffering in the world and those with the power, unwilling to stop it. Sending food, hugs and good intentions for 30 years has not changed anything. What is the definition of insanity again?

 

[exabedtech]

You cannot possibly have 'honour' in the same sentence as that jackass.  Canadian Airborne Regiment.  Enough said. 
I'm with Sythen... Our allies fought and we should have fought with them.  The fact that Bush was full of it wasn't entirely clear until after the fact otherwise no one would have gone in with him.
That clown made us look like idiots on the world stage and I thank god daily that he and his party are long gone.  Lets hope they stay that way.  Do I sound bitter??  Having your prime minister refer to your regiment as a 'disgrace to the country' can have that effect on a guy.  He can rot in hell.

 

[Maxadia]

Yeah, we would have lost soldiers....damm good ones too.

But how many of those lost lives you refer to, would have been saved by our involvement?

 

[Brad Sallows]

>He kept us out of IRAQ

He did not.  France and China and Russia kept us out of Iraq.  Chretien's position was for Canada to participate in an invasion of Iraq if one was sanctioned by the UN.

 

[Snaketnk]

I'm glad we didn't go to Iraq, only because I don't think we would have been able to sustain any involvement there logistically.

That's all I'm saying on the matter.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>developments are showing the WMD hysteria were based upon a lie.

Not exactly so, and not necessarily the most relevant point regardless.  Read here for the "reasons" for war.  Hint: there were several.  (Note: I don't claim the war was "just"; I only emphasize the facts of the congressional authorization.)

I know many, many people have fixated on the weakness of Iraq's nuclear weapons program at the time as somehow disqualifying all of the reasons for going for war, but their tunnel vision and ignorance and desire to airbrush out history does not obscure the truth as much as they would like.

 

[cupper]

Not to mention the slight revisionist history by claiming it all came down to one man who lied.

Let's not overlook the fact that said individual was discredited by several of the European intelligence agencies.

What it comes down to is that the Bush Administration was going to end up in Iraq one way or the other. But then 9/11 happened, and the intel didn't completely square up with justifying a move into Iraq.

[/TANGENTIAL RANT] I'm not claiming that the Bush Administration lied it's way into Iraq, but they did cherry pick the facts.

Hell, I don't even criticize them for going in and throwing out one of the most vile dictators of the 20th Century out of power. My criticism is how they handled the aftermath, dropping the ball on an opportunity to build up a useful ally and base from which to counteract the rise of Iran.

The world would have been a different place if Donald Rumsfeld had not been a micromanaging kingdom builder. [/tangential rant]

 

[PuckChaser]

In the militia from 1963 to 1972

So you didn't actually serve during the decade of darkness that Chretien put the CF through? As a dependant during that time, I can tell you pay cheque to pay cheque with eating rations at home for meals some days because pay increases were frozen for years was not quite fun. Because of it, I'll never have any respect for Chretien, he destroyed the CF and we're just starting to fix it now.

 

[Good2Golf]

So you didn't actually serve during the decade of darkness that Chretien put the CF through? As a dependant during that time, I can tell you pay cheque to pay cheque with eating rations at home for meals some days because pay increases were frozen for years was not quite fun. Because of it, I'll never have any respect for Chretien, he continued destroying the CF, as started by his mentor Trudeau, and we're just starting to fix it now.

There PC, fixed that for you... 

 

[Edward Campbell]

SherH2A is offering the received wisdom from e.g. the CBC. In my reasonably well informed opinion there was no, zero, zilch strategic calculation in any of Jean Chrétien's military/foreign policy decisions about Afghanistan or Iraq.

The first Afghanistan decision, taken in Sep 01, to deploy one battle group to Kandahar for one rotation only was taken, I am informed by a very reliable source, on the very firm advice of a very small handful of ministers who were reading only the domestic political tea leaves. In Sep 01 most Canadians wanted us to do something, anything to help the USA - troops into Afghanistan was a cheap and easy way to show solidarity. But the feeling of goodwill towards the UUSA wore off quickly and when, most sadly, four Canadians were killed in a "friendly fire" incident the PMO encouraged an absolute orgy of anti-Americanism, because that is always good politics in Canada ~ the CF went along, and a unit's real grief was was used for partisan political purposes.

As Brad Sallows has reminded us, Chrétien hid behind a UNSC resolution rather than say "yea" or "nay" to going to Iraq and, thereby, risk offending the Americans - it was good domestic politics, poor foreign policy and showed Chrétien for the cowardly, devious conniver he was and still is.

But Chrétien gave Canadians what they wanted: a low risk chance to thumb their noses at the USA. That's why we didn't go to Iraq - pure vote buying.

(Parenthetically: I believe the invasion of Iraq was a strategic blunder, I thought so at the time or, at least, I could not see a good strategic rationale for the invasion, but, had I been PM I would have gone along with the Americans, even with all my doubts and even in the face of a growing body of distortions and outright lies, in order to preserve the solidarity of the West. It would have been poor policy and even worse politics ... which is one of the 35 million reasons I'm not PM.)


Edit: corrected citation