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Aw yes. Bring back the Round Trip Memo!
PERs : All issues questions...2003-2019
- Thread starter sgtdixon
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I have to start with a disclaimer: I can't imagine getting worked up about anything the Toronto Star writes about the CF/DND; you know it's going to be distorted muck-raking at best, but most likely just plain wrong.
Take this article as a case in point.
Actually reading it, it states that "The main reason behind a soldier's decision to find new work has been family."
Is that questionaire-based fact reflected in the headline?: Bureaucrats killing Forces morale, soldiers say. Nope.
How about the sub-headline?: Retirees bemoan civilian influence, obsession with political correctness. Nope.
So now that we've reaffirmed the Star's complete lack of journalistic integrity...
It's human nature to pine about "the good old days." It's this sort of selective memory that allows us to be civil to our kids after we all get through their teenage years.
I remember bitching about the "RV" exercises; now there's bitching about the lack of Bde-level training exercises. Complaints about 'when is our Bn going to get a Cyprus roto' have been replaced by 'Op tempo is too high.' About the only constant is perspective: from the tactical level, higher HQ doesn't have a clue; from higher HQ, subordinates aren't following direction.
While I'm just as guilty, I'm glad I'm generally a 'glass half-full' kind of guy --it's a sunny day, I truly believe the CF is a great place to work, and the bike is calling my name. ;D
Mind you, the article wasn't completely useless; I did find some of the comments amusing:
Oh, and Star editors....in the title, Forces is possessive (but I learned grammar back in Grade 7)
Take this article as a case in point.
Actually reading it, it states that "The main reason behind a soldier's decision to find new work has been family."
Is that questionaire-based fact reflected in the headline?: Bureaucrats killing Forces morale, soldiers say. Nope.
How about the sub-headline?: Retirees bemoan civilian influence, obsession with political correctness. Nope.
So now that we've reaffirmed the Star's complete lack of journalistic integrity...
It's human nature to pine about "the good old days." It's this sort of selective memory that allows us to be civil to our kids after we all get through their teenage years.
I remember bitching about the "RV" exercises; now there's bitching about the lack of Bde-level training exercises. Complaints about 'when is our Bn going to get a Cyprus roto' have been replaced by 'Op tempo is too high.' About the only constant is perspective: from the tactical level, higher HQ doesn't have a clue; from higher HQ, subordinates aren't following direction.
While I'm just as guilty, I'm glad I'm generally a 'glass half-full' kind of guy --it's a sunny day, I truly believe the CF is a great place to work, and the bike is calling my name. ;D
Mind you, the article wasn't completely useless; I did find some of the comments amusing:
Oh, and Star editors....in the title, Forces is possessive (but I learned grammar back in Grade 7)
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Considering the number of members of Army.ca that joined here over the past years with no intent other than figuring out how fast they could get to Afghanistan, I am not surprised that many of those individuals had no intention of ever being part of the institutional army that exists between wars. Those who joined with an intent to go overseas did so and are now looking at postings to Schools or long periods of garrison time. They already planned to leave - describing their releases as "to avoid the bureaucratic BS" is sensationalizing a decision that was part of their original plan. After all, who wants to tell a reporter they only joined to go to the war?
The average of 16 years is a hollow statistic. Let's see the real data. How many are leaving at the end of 3 to 6 years? How many are hitting 20-25 years? (And what's the median between those two groups?) What are the real high points on that graph using useful data resolution?
The average of 16 years is a hollow statistic. Let's see the real data. How many are leaving at the end of 3 to 6 years? How many are hitting 20-25 years? (And what's the median between those two groups?) What are the real high points on that graph using useful data resolution?
McG
Army.ca Legend
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Well, the author is clearly ignorant of statistics and attempting to dazzle with BS. He is hoping the stupid reader will infer that things are so bad that there is a glut of soldiers releasing just prior to receiving a pension entitlement. Nothing in the article substantiates such a suggestion.
Can anyone tell me the average length of service for five soldiers having served 5, 10, 20, 20 and 25 years? That's right, the average length of service is 16 years but neither of the two individuals not collecting a pension came anywhere near deserving it.
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MCG said:
You're talking about Toronto Star readers. What do you think?
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The exit survey will now be changed so that no matter how stupid the Canadaian media is, the answers given by releasing CF pers, cannot be spun to sell a newspaper (or highlight on TV).
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I would argue as well that the promotion freeze and the ill concieved Force Reduction Program in the 90s has has an effect on disproportionate releases.
I was in the last influx of recruits in the late 80s that went though Cornwallis when it was still running 12 crses at a time. I can still remember our crse WO saying that there will be dark times ahead.
Now in an effort to keep the numbers rational you are seeing 5 and 6 yr MCpls in the trades that normally would see them see that particular rank in 10 yrs.
I was in the last influx of recruits in the late 80s that went though Cornwallis when it was still running 12 crses at a time. I can still remember our crse WO saying that there will be dark times ahead.
Now in an effort to keep the numbers rational you are seeing 5 and 6 yr MCpls in the trades that normally would see them see that particular rank in 10 yrs.
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That's it I'm getting out. 2025 can not come soon enough. Sixteen more years and I'm hitting the skids. I LOVE THE ARMY, BEST GIG EVER!!! People bitch no matter what. I have another famous quote "You don't like it get the **ck out"
TOW TRIPOD
TOW TRIPOD
Towards_the_gap
Sr. Member
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Tow Tripod said:
And many people are choosing that option......hence, as Jammer pointed out, 5-6 yr MCpl's if not younger. A PLQ course ran last fall in Pet with the majority of the candidates 1-2 yr Pte's (Tprs sorry). It's all well and good to let those go who don't like the system, but why have those exit surveys in the first place, if all we're going to do is ignore any warning signs that the system isn't the best it could be, and therefore be blind to any need to change.
I too love soldiering, but I hate idiotic, garrison, no-point bureaucratic horsepoo. And the higher up you go, the more you see it, the more you get pissed off, the more you see the similarities between the DND and The Vogons.
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It was once said that if you told your CM that you were getting out because of reason X that they would help you pack your kit.
We're now at that point that CMs are almost to the point of begging the SNCOs who are contemplating release to stay in.
The high OPTEMPO in the last few years has had a detrimental effect of retention.
We're now at that point that CMs are almost to the point of begging the SNCOs who are contemplating release to stay in.
The high OPTEMPO in the last few years has had a detrimental effect of retention.
Towards_the_gap
Sr. Member
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Agreed Jammer, and in other ways that some might not realise.
For an NCO, it is hard to rationalise things when you go from calling in 9 liners/contact reports as fellow troops are fighting, to being faced with someone rejecting a leave pass because you didn't put periods in between their intials. That is my point, the petty official dom that has spread like a virus throughout the CF.
For an NCO, it is hard to rationalise things when you go from calling in 9 liners/contact reports as fellow troops are fighting, to being faced with someone rejecting a leave pass because you didn't put periods in between their intials. That is my point, the petty official dom that has spread like a virus throughout the CF.
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Well,
I'm about a month out of leaving the Reg Force. My 2nd BE is due to expire and my plan is to CT to the PRes while I go to school. In contradiction to this article, I can't say that I'm leaving because of frustration with the "Morale sucking managers." To be honest, I love my current job and I'm grateful of my time serving with the RCR.
The only reason I'm leaving is to experience new things. Ironically, I think the most important thing I've learned in the army is that in order to reach your potential you need to push out of your comfort zone. Looking at my life right now, the army is my comfort zone. It's just time for me to move onto something different.
A couple other thoughts:
-Paperwork, in my mind, is a necessary evil. Memorandums are the standard for the passage of clear and concise information. The more you deviate from that standard, the more chance the message will get confuddled, and misinterpreted. This ends up being a burden on the command team, who can juggle more things effectively if one ball isn't shaped like a brick. 638 Cards are necessary to ensure that equipment goes where it needs to go, and when it needs to be allocated elsewhere the CQ knows where to look for it. Everyone has limited resources, so if an army wants to win wars it needs to have an organized supply system. I agree that a fanatical observance of the "little things" can seem anal and get frustrating at times, but without taking a few extra minutes to cross the Ts and dot the Is in the short term we'd lose all sorts of speed and agility in the long term.
-I got to Battalion in March 2004, and I'll admit that there were a few anal rules that struck me as pretty silly. Over the past 5 years though, it seems like so much of that has fallen by the wayside. Troops are allowed to take out their bootbands in the field. Non-issue Camelbaks are allowed. Stealth suits are being worn as outer garments. In the summer, you can wear your sleeves up or down. I regularly see Sergeants Major with hands in their pockets. Guess what? The army hasn't fallen apart either. I think alot of this newfound leniency has to do with the fact that getting shot at puts things in perspective. IMHO the past few years has seen the army changing for the better.
I'm about a month out of leaving the Reg Force. My 2nd BE is due to expire and my plan is to CT to the PRes while I go to school. In contradiction to this article, I can't say that I'm leaving because of frustration with the "Morale sucking managers." To be honest, I love my current job and I'm grateful of my time serving with the RCR.
The only reason I'm leaving is to experience new things. Ironically, I think the most important thing I've learned in the army is that in order to reach your potential you need to push out of your comfort zone. Looking at my life right now, the army is my comfort zone. It's just time for me to move onto something different.
A couple other thoughts:
-Paperwork, in my mind, is a necessary evil. Memorandums are the standard for the passage of clear and concise information. The more you deviate from that standard, the more chance the message will get confuddled, and misinterpreted. This ends up being a burden on the command team, who can juggle more things effectively if one ball isn't shaped like a brick. 638 Cards are necessary to ensure that equipment goes where it needs to go, and when it needs to be allocated elsewhere the CQ knows where to look for it. Everyone has limited resources, so if an army wants to win wars it needs to have an organized supply system. I agree that a fanatical observance of the "little things" can seem anal and get frustrating at times, but without taking a few extra minutes to cross the Ts and dot the Is in the short term we'd lose all sorts of speed and agility in the long term.
-I got to Battalion in March 2004, and I'll admit that there were a few anal rules that struck me as pretty silly. Over the past 5 years though, it seems like so much of that has fallen by the wayside. Troops are allowed to take out their bootbands in the field. Non-issue Camelbaks are allowed. Stealth suits are being worn as outer garments. In the summer, you can wear your sleeves up or down. I regularly see Sergeants Major with hands in their pockets. Guess what? The army hasn't fallen apart either. I think alot of this newfound leniency has to do with the fact that getting shot at puts things in perspective. IMHO the past few years has seen the army changing for the better.
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Thanks for the compliment.
I really can't see myself applying for an OT. I joined the army to carry a rifle and the only place I could see myself aside from the infantry is one of the CANSOF units. Thats a pretty big commitment though, and there are other things I'd like to try first.
I really can't see myself applying for an OT. I joined the army to carry a rifle and the only place I could see myself aside from the infantry is one of the CANSOF units. Thats a pretty big commitment though, and there are other things I'd like to try first.
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"16 years average?"
There are lots of companies who would love to be able to keep trained personnel for 16 years.
"too politically correct?"
I'll bet it would be about 90% if you asked the same question about Canadian society.
There are lots of companies who would love to be able to keep trained personnel for 16 years.
"too politically correct?"
I'll bet it would be about 90% if you asked the same question about Canadian society.
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There are lies, damn lies and statistics, as this discussion illustrates. The FRP trough is biting hard right now.
However, there are instances I can recall that do illustrate this premise. I recall one friend who was a DND civilian who submitted their resignation letter to their boss. Unspoken in the letter was the boss' micro-management and obsessive/excessive attention to staff duties details.
The letter was returned, red-penned, for correction and re-submission...
However, there are instances I can recall that do illustrate this premise. I recall one friend who was a DND civilian who submitted their resignation letter to their boss. Unspoken in the letter was the boss' micro-management and obsessive/excessive attention to staff duties details.
The letter was returned, red-penned, for correction and re-submission...
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What an interesting read.
After being around for the last 30 years, I can say a couple of things for sure.
1. The only thing that does not change is the fact that there will always be change.
2. The good days were years ago. What I think are the good old days are the days other people thought were the end of the good times. Well I think now is the end of the good times, but I am sure people will look back and remember these as the good old days.
3. The good guys all leave early. They see the light and know they can do better else where. So what does that leave behind? Like the monkeys in the tree. When the ones on top look down they see lots of smiling faces. When the ones on the bottom look up they see nothing but a**holes.
I wonder what that makes me after 30 years. Ya, I know what they say about me. Well it's time for me to go and I'll be gone (retired) by the end of the month.
After being around for the last 30 years, I can say a couple of things for sure.
1. The only thing that does not change is the fact that there will always be change.
2. The good days were years ago. What I think are the good old days are the days other people thought were the end of the good times. Well I think now is the end of the good times, but I am sure people will look back and remember these as the good old days.
3. The good guys all leave early. They see the light and know they can do better else where. So what does that leave behind? Like the monkeys in the tree. When the ones on top look down they see lots of smiling faces. When the ones on the bottom look up they see nothing but a**holes.
I wonder what that makes me after 30 years. Ya, I know what they say about me. Well it's time for me to go and I'll be gone (retired) by the end of the month.
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dapaterson said:
I have only seen ONE person put the true reason they were releasing on their memo.The RSM didn't like it much.Lets face it the CO/RSM never get truthful memo's,as no one wants to burn bridges or wants a favorable letter of recommendation upon release.
I think the biggest pile of releases are going to be when we pull out of Afghanistan and we start sitting around the hanger floors again.Only to deploy to stalk the fantasians in the woods for days on end.
Don't get me wrong training is great and all,but we have a whole younger generation who never dealt with the late 90's and the B/S training that was underfunded and useless for the most part,when we had the money to go on ex.Plus the HOPE of deploying once every 4-5 years.The new lad's have 2-3 tours under their belts,which has been 3-4 years of their careers deployed/training to deploy.
The biggest strain I see on morale right now from my vantage point at work is the seem to see stuff more trivial.After losing friends,engaging and being engaged sitting around the hanger or being a extra in a TCCC scenario is not what or where they wanna be.
Just my observations.
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