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Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)

Journeyman

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Irrelevant tangent....

Oldgateboatdriver said:
In the Navy, we call room for the entrance of the XO or the CO (for example)…
Once upon a time while on course at FDU(P), several of us were watching TV in the shacks during the weekend when three Navy uniformed people walked in;  the MS announced "Rounds."

Of course, the lot of us responded with "Rounds? Great, I'll have a beer.... rum & coke over here....etc"

The A/SLt and the MS looked flustered, the grizzled PO ushered them out, and turned on us, "you're not Navy are you?"  After explaining that we were definitely not sailors, but just in town for the dive course, he nodded, explained 'rounds' and said, "no worries, I'll keep the duty officer away."


[:D  war story ends
 

ChicknBone

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When saluting a superior, should you keep your right hand up to your brow until the person you are saluting has saluted back and their hand has gone back down to their side? At which point your hand would then go down. Or is it better to simply keep your hand up for about a second and wait at attention until the superior salutes back?
Thank you
 

OceanBonfire

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ChicknBone said:
When saluting a superior, should you keep your right hand up to your brow until the person you are saluting has saluted back and their hand has gone back down to their side? At which point your hand would then go down. Or is it better to simply keep your hand up for about a second and wait at attention until the superior salutes back?
Thank you

The former is the correct protocol.
 

Eye In The Sky

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OceanBonfire said:
The former is the correct protocol.

The CAF Manual of Drill and Ceremonial, Chapter 2, Saluting At The Halt Without Arms is the 'correct protocol', actually.

37.  On the command TO THE FRONT SALUTE BY NUMBERS, SQUAD – ONE, squad members shall:
a.bend the right elbow and open the palm of the right hand as it passes the shoulder; and

b.force the right hand by its shortest route to the front of the headdress (Figure 2-8) so that:
1.the palm of the hand is facing down,
2.the thumb and fingers are fully extended and close together,
3.the tip of the second finger is in line with the outside of the right eyebrow and touching the outside edge of the headdress or arm of glasses, if worn,
4.the hand, wrist and forearm are in a straight line and at a 45 degree angle to the upper arm,
5.the elbow is in line with the shoulders, and
6.the upper arm is parallel to the ground.

38.  On the command SQUAD – TWO, the hand is brought sharply to the position of attention by the shortest route, without slapping the thigh. The hand is closed after the forearm is lowered below shoulder level.

39.  On the command TO THE FRONT – SALUTE, the two movements are combined. The standard pause shall be observed between movements.

40.On the command TO THE RIGHT (LEFT) SALUTE BY NUMBERS, SQUAD – ONE, saluting shall be executed as detailed in paragraph 37, except that:

a.the head and eyes shall be turned smartly to the right (left) as far as possible without straining;
b.when saluting to the left, the right hand, wrist and arm are brought further over to the left to the correct position in line with the outside edge of the right eyebrow; and
c.when saluting to the right, the arm is moved to the rear, with the tip of the second finger remaining in line with the outside edge of the right eyebrow.

41.On the command SQUAD – TWO, the hand is brought sharply to the position of attention, and simultaneously the head and eyes are turned smartly to the front.

42.On the command TO THE RIGHT (LEFT) – SALUTE, the two movements are combined. The standard pause shall be observed between movements.

From Ch 1:

TERMINOLOGY
7.In this manual, “shall”, “will”, “is” and “are” are to be construed as imperative

STANDARD PAUSE
45.The standard pause between each drill movement is two beats of quick time.

43.When wearing headdress other than a cap with a peak, the second finger is 2 cm above and in line with the outer tip of the right eyebrow.

Chickenbone, you're not actually holding your salute up 'to your brow'...just for clarity/accuracy. 
 

OceanBonfire

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Eye In The Sky said:
The CAF Manual of Drill and Ceremonial, Chapter 2, Saluting At The Halt Without Arms is the 'correct protocol', actually.

37.  On the command TO THE FRONT SALUTE BY NUMBERS, SQUAD – ONE, squad members shall:
a.bend the right elbow and open the palm of the right hand as it passes the shoulder; and

b.force the right hand by its shortest route to the front of the headdress (Figure 2-8) so that:
1.the palm of the hand is facing down,
2.the thumb and fingers are fully extended and close together,
3.the tip of the second finger is in line with the outside of the right eyebrow and touching the outside edge of the headdress or arm of glasses, if worn,
4.the hand, wrist and forearm are in a straight line and at a 45 degree angle to the upper arm,
5.the elbow is in line with the shoulders, and
6.the upper arm is parallel to the ground.

38.  On the command SQUAD – TWO, the hand is brought sharply to the position of attention by the shortest route, without slapping the thigh. The hand is closed after the forearm is lowered below shoulder level.

39.  On the command TO THE FRONT – SALUTE, the two movements are combined. The standard pause shall be observed between movements.

40.On the command TO THE RIGHT (LEFT) SALUTE BY NUMBERS, SQUAD – ONE, saluting shall be executed as detailed in paragraph 37, except that:

a.the head and eyes shall be turned smartly to the right (left) as far as possible without straining;
b.when saluting to the left, the right hand, wrist and arm are brought further over to the left to the correct position in line with the outside edge of the right eyebrow; and
c.when saluting to the right, the arm is moved to the rear, with the tip of the second finger remaining in line with the outside edge of the right eyebrow.

41.On the command SQUAD – TWO, the hand is brought sharply to the position of attention, and simultaneously the head and eyes are turned smartly to the front.

42.On the command TO THE RIGHT (LEFT) – SALUTE, the two movements are combined. The standard pause shall be observed between movements.

From Ch 1:

TERMINOLOGY
7.In this manual, “shall”, “will”, “is” and “are” are to be construed as imperative

STANDARD PAUSE
45.The standard pause between each drill movement is two beats of quick time.

43.When wearing headdress other than a cap with a peak, the second finger is 2 cm above and in line with the outer tip of the right eyebrow.

...

Those are for drill. Saluting a superior passing by would be saluting first and then drop the salute after the superior has drop his/her salute. I've had members lock to attention and salute me as I pass by which I find it's overkill.
 

Eye In The Sky

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OceanBonfire said:
Those are for drill.

:facepalm: 

No there, sunshine...that is how we, in the CAF, salute...at the halt...without arms (as in without weapons ).  It is a DRILL MOVEMENT.  And why did I select that particular part of CFP 201?  Because of this little thing called 'attention to detail'.

ChicknBone said:
When saluting a superior, should you keep your right hand up to your brow until the person you are saluting has saluted back and their hand has gone back down to their side? At which point your hand would then go down. Or is it better to simply keep your hand up for about a second and wait at attention until the superior salutes back?
Thank you

The yellow part suggests they are 'at the halt' vice "walking/marching" to me.

Saluting a superior passing by would be saluting first and then drop the salute after the superior has drop his/her salute.

Well, luckily for you, the CAF thought of a scenario like this many years ago and also came up with a drill movement for it!    :eek:

CFP 201, Chap 3, SALUTE ON THE MARCH WITHOUT ARMS

80.When a service member salutes on the march, he shall commence the drill movement five paces before reaching an officer, look directly into the officer’s eyes by turning his head in the required direction on the commencement of the salute, and complete the salute one pace beyond him. This permits the officer to return the salute before the member has passed (Figure 3-12).

You can read and practice the rest for your own professional development.

I've had members lock to attention and salute me as I pass by which I find it's overkill.

Unfortunately, Basic Training for both NCMs and Officers isn't what it once was, as you're demonstrating in this thread.  CFLRS has cut out a sizeable portion of drill and ceremonial knowledge from what was done in yester-years.

- if the "member" is stationary as you approach, that is basically what they're supposed to do if they are an NCM or you're a higher ranking Commissioned Officer.
- if they are walking...they should be following the part from Chap 3 above.

Either way, saluting is a drill movement and should be done IAW CFP 201 and  the application of some common sense.  If I'm in the parking lot and I see a few Officers in 'saluting range' and they're talking, I usually give them a 'good morning! etc' to get their attention before I give them the high-5.  As I am approaching them, I am 'walking' not 'marching' as I would be on a parade, but that's about the only real difference. 
 

Eye In The Sky

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ChicknBone said:
When saluting a superior, should you keep your right hand up to your brow until the person you are saluting has saluted back and their hand has gone back down to their side? At which point your hand would then go down. Or is it better to simply keep your hand up for about a second and wait at attention until the superior salutes back?
Thank you

Chicknbone...so the answer doesn't get lost on you here.  As you were likely (hopefully) taught during Basic, you hold the standard pause of "2, 3" between the "up" (Squad 1) and "cut" (squad 2) part of the movement.  You salute, the Superior Officer returns the salute, you return to the position of attention, the Superior Officer cuts their salute.  There is no need to observe anything other than the standard pause (2,3) or anything.

Reading your question, I was envisioning a situation where you are on a parade, and march up in front of the Officer to receive something;  in that case, they will be expecting the salute.  In a situation like you are standing outside the CANEX or something and you see an Officer approaching, you can always offer a verbal "good morning sir/ma'am" to them to attract their attention and begin your salute as they make eye contact.

If ever in doubt, just refer to CFP 201 (Manual of Drill & Ceremonial).
 

OceanBonfire

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Eye In The Sky said:
Chicknbone...so the answer doesn't get lost on you here.  As you were likely (hopefully) taught during Basic, you hold the standard pause of "2, 3" between the "up" (Squad 1) and "cut" (squad 2) part of the movement.  You salute, the Superior Officer returns the salute, you return to the position of attention, the Superior Officer cuts their salute.  There is no need to observe anything other than the standard pause (2,3) or anything.

Reading your question, I was envisioning a situation where you are on a parade, and march up in front of the Officer to receive something;  in that case, they will be expecting the salute.  In a situation like you are standing outside the CANEX or something and you see an Officer approaching, you can always offer a verbal "good morning sir/ma'am" to them to attract their attention and begin your salute as they make eye contact.

If ever in doubt, just refer to CFP 201 (Manual of Drill & Ceremonial).

The way I read the question is s/he isn't on parade. S/he will have to clarify that. However, you're going hard here like a salty senior NCO. I understand that it is a drill movement but I understand his/her question from the point of view as him/her not "drilling" around.
 

Eye In The Sky

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OceanBonfire said:
The way I read the question is s/he isn't on parade. S/he will have to clarify that.

I'll say this as plainly as possible so you can hopefully understand it.

Even if you are not on parade, saluting (i.e. - paying a compliment) is a drill movement.  It doesn't matter if it is done on a parade square, or not.

I'll back up a little bit to an earlier part of the Manual (201). 

CFP 201, Chap 1, Section 2 - Compliments.

SECTION 2 COMPLIMENTS

GENERAL

1.  Compliments are formal marks of respect and courtesy, i.e., salutes.

2.  The military salute is a traditional demonstration of trust and respect. Although the method of saluting varies with circumstances, the paying of compliments is a fundamental requirement that is indispensable to service discipline.

3.  In Canada, military compliments are only paid to the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; the Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence; lieutenant-governors; and commissioned officers. Exceptions, such as compliments paid to deceased service members, are as detailed in paragraphs 20 to 23 and paragraphs 25, 26, 28, 29 et 41.

4.  Service individuals receiving a compliment shall acknowledge it.

5. Detailed instructions on the techniques of paying individual compliments are found elsewhere in this publication as follows:

a.  at the halt – Chapter 2;
b.  on the march – Chapter 3;


(these are the parts of CFP 201 I was referencing earlier)

INDIVIDUAL

9.Officers shall salute all officers of higher rank and shall return all compliments paid them. Senior officers receiving compliments from marching troops on a ceremonial parade shall hold the salute as each individual component passes directly by in review.

10.Non-commissioned members shall salute all commissioned officers.

11.  Officers and non-commissioned members not part of a formed military group shall all pay individual compliments to an approaching higher ranking officer (see also paragraph 12). The senior officer receiving the salute shall return the compliment, while military persons accompanying that officer give an eyes right/left in the same manner as saluting without headdress (paragraph 15) during the exchange of compliments or greetings.

12.When an officer approaches a group of non-commissioned members, the senior of the group or the person who recognizes the officer first shall take command and call the group to attention: (GROUP, ATTEN-TION) the senior or person in charge shall then alone salute. Junior members shall draw their senior’s attention to approaching officers if the circumstances require and allow.

13.Individual compliments to a formed military group on the march and under the command of an officer shall be paid by halting, turning to face the group and saluting. The salute should be maintained until the entire group has passed.

14.While bearing arms, individuals shall pay compliments to officers by saluting at the shoulder arms position. Sentries shall pay compliments in accordance with Chapter 10, Section 4.

15.When in uniform and not wearing headdress, compliments shall be paid by standing at attention. If on the march, arms shall be swung and the head turned to the left or right as required.

you're going hard here like a salty senior NCO

I think the term 'salty' is one usually used with Navy Petty Officers and Chief Petty Officers, not so much Army or Air Force Snr NCOs and Warrant Officers. 

What is 'going hard'?  Telling you you're wrong, but then taking the time to show you the actual references for your knowledge and understanding? 

I understand that it is a drill movement but I understand his/her question from the point of view as him/her not "drilling" around.

:waiting: 

This is the part that you're not understanding, that I'm trying to help you understand.

- there is no way to "pay compliments on the parade square" and a separate one for "when an officer is walking by me outside the Tim's at Stadacona".  It is done the same way, and the references to 'how to do it' are the ones I'm providing you. 

- the minor differences, usually, are (1) people aren't always marching formally everywhere leading up to the 'paying a compliment' situation, and (2) the movements are usually a little more relaxed when not on 'parade' but the way compliments are paid doesn't change. 
 

RocketRichard

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Eye In The Sky said:
I'll say this as plainly as possible so you can hopefully understand it.

Even if you are not on parade, saluting (i.e. - paying a compliment) is a drill movement.  It doesn't matter if it is done on a parade square, or not.

I'll back up a little bit to an earlier part of the Manual (201). 

CFP 201, Chap 1, Section 2 - Compliments.

SECTION 2 COMPLIMENTS

GENERAL

1.  Compliments are formal marks of respect and courtesy, i.e., salutes.

2.  The military salute is a traditional demonstration of trust and respect. Although the method of saluting varies with circumstances, the paying of compliments is a fundamental requirement that is indispensable to service discipline.

3.  In Canada, military compliments are only paid to the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; the Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence; lieutenant-governors; and commissioned officers. Exceptions, such as compliments paid to deceased service members, are as detailed in paragraphs 20 to 23 and paragraphs 25, 26, 28, 29 et 41.

4.  Service individuals receiving a compliment shall acknowledge it.

5. Detailed instructions on the techniques of paying individual compliments are found elsewhere in this publication as follows:

a.  at the halt – Chapter 2;
b.  on the march – Chapter 3;


(these are the parts of CFP 201 I was referencing earlier)

INDIVIDUAL

9.Officers shall salute all officers of higher rank and shall return all compliments paid them. Senior officers receiving compliments from marching troops on a ceremonial parade shall hold the salute as each individual component passes directly by in review.

10.Non-commissioned members shall salute all commissioned officers.

11.  Officers and non-commissioned members not part of a formed military group shall all pay individual compliments to an approaching higher ranking officer (see also paragraph 12). The senior officer receiving the salute shall return the compliment, while military persons accompanying that officer give an eyes right/left in the same manner as saluting without headdress (paragraph 15) during the exchange of compliments or greetings.

12.When an officer approaches a group of non-commissioned members, the senior of the group or the person who recognizes the officer first shall take command and call the group to attention: (GROUP, ATTEN-TION) the senior or person in charge shall then alone salute. Junior members shall draw their senior’s attention to approaching officers if the circumstances require and allow.

13.Individual compliments to a formed military group on the march and under the command of an officer shall be paid by halting, turning to face the group and saluting. The salute should be maintained until the entire group has passed.

14.While bearing arms, individuals shall pay compliments to officers by saluting at the shoulder arms position. Sentries shall pay compliments in accordance with Chapter 10, Section 4.

15.When in uniform and not wearing headdress, compliments shall be paid by standing at attention. If on the march, arms shall be swung and the head turned to the left or right as required.

I think the term 'salty' is one usually used with Navy Petty Officers and Chief Petty Officers, not so much Army or Air Force Snr NCOs and Warrant Officers. 

What is 'going hard'?  Telling you you're wrong, but then taking the time to show you the actual references for your knowledge and understanding? 

:waiting: 

This is the part that you're not understanding, that I'm trying to help you understand.

- there is no way to "pay compliments on the parade square" and a separate one for "when an officer is walking by me outside the Tim's at Stadacona".  It is done the same way, and the references to 'how to do it' are the ones I'm providing you. 

- the minor differences, usually, are (1) people aren't always marching formally everywhere leading up to the 'paying a compliment' situation, and (2) the movements are usually a little more relaxed when not on 'parade' but the way compliments are paid doesn't change.
EITS is bang on and backs this up with references. This is a drill movement and is taught to every member of the CAF. Not very difficult to figure out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Nfld Sapper

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Round and round we go with this.... when in doubt about anything there is always a reference or publication which tells you what to do... you should look it up....


What is with this newer generation that wants everything handed to them...
 

Eye In The Sky

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NFLD Sapper said:
What is with this newer generation that wants everything handed to them...

...and when it's handed to them, then says "nope, that's not it..."  :dunno:
 

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ChicknBone said:
When saluting a superior, should you keep your right hand up to your brow until the person you are saluting has saluted back and their hand has gone back down to their side? At which point your hand would then go down. Or is it better to simply keep your hand up for about a second and wait at attention until the superior salutes back?
Thank you

No discussion about saluting should overlook this.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzKTOUkroU0

I salute EITS for his explanation of saluting.

"Wait", there's no waiting in drill.  It's all about timing.  And the timing in the army is "1,2,3".  Whether it's square bashing with officers falling in and taking over from WOs/SMs, or someone falling out of ranks and reporting to an officer making a presentation, or even in the course of a normal days work if it is appropriate to the situation to salute the same timing is always used.  The individual moving (regardless if it is the senior or junior) comes to a halt, both parties "should" observe the standard pause and the saluting movement should appear coordinated.  I know that anytime that I was on parade as an officer and on falling in I repeated silently (and sometimes not so silently) the same counting that I learned in Cornwallis.  Halt, 2,3, Up, 2,3, Down, 2,3, and then accepted the report from the WO or CSM or RSM (or DCO) depending on the stage of my career.  Sometimes you could see the lips move as both of us would silently be doing the same count.
 

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And just a pet peeve, if you've got the motivation to write "he/she" you can save type and just write "they" until you've figured out someone's gender.

You can also apply this to real life when unsure of someone's gender in emails, at a party, saluting at the halt, saluting while marching, etc...
 
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Is there a specific distance in the pubs which tells us an appropriate distance to salute someone while passing by? It’s always been “a judgement” call which can vary from person to person.

Is there an actual “minimum or maximum distance”? I took a look through the drill manual and didn’t see anything. I could have sworn I saw a distance before though.

A few people in the office are having a debate so I decided to take this to the forums for answers!

Thanks! Hope everyone had a safe and enjoyable long weekend.
 

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From the Drill Manual Chapter 3:

80. When a service member salutes on the march, he shall commence the drill movement five paces before reaching an officer, look directly into the officer’s eyes by turning his head in the required direction on the commencement of the salute, and complete the salute one pace beyond him. This permits the officer to return the salute before the member has passed (Figure 3-12).
 

Blackadder1916

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Somerandomfellow said:
Is there a specific distance in the pubs which tells us an appropriate distance to salute someone while passing by? It’s always been “a judgement” call which can vary from person to person.

Is there an actual “minimum or maximum distance”? . . .

Does 211RadOp's reply answer your question or are you wondering if you have to salute someone only if they are within a certain radius?  Is your question more along the lines of situations such as, a member is walking on a sidewalk and there is an officer approaching on another pathway that is 90 degrees to the sidewalk - if the member will have passed the sidewalk/pathway intersection before the officer reaches it, how far away does the officer have to be before the member is required/expected to salute?  Or the other common situation, member is walking on the sidewalk and an officer is approaching on the sidewalk on the other side of the roadway, do you salute?  What if it is a really wide roadway, more than two lanes, there is traffic?  I've seen NCMs (and officers) very obviously and deliberately cross the street in an attempt to avoid saluting.
 

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I recall getting jacked up because a group of us did not salute a group of officers who drove by in a van with tinted windows. Doesn't exactly garnish respect for higher ranks when stuff like that happens.
 

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I recall a gaggle of officers discussing some critical issue of the day (likely hockey playoff scores or some such) and a cabal of corporals marching past, one every thirty seconds or so, planting their right foot about 6" below the surface, loudly yelling "Sirs!" and delivering a drill-manual perfect salute as they passed.

After the first ten or so, the gaggle of officers retreated to a better place for their discussion.
 
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