• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Ottawa to pay nearly $1B to settle sexual misconduct lawsuits against CAF

grayzone

Guest
Reaction score
11
Points
180
Yes - you are correct about category B and C . I should have been clearer on that - my post about the "illegitimate claims" was directed at the Category A compensation (the $5k amount) as it is the one that did not require any sort of evidence in order to file.

Category B and C require specific incidents in order to apply. Could there be some illegitimate claims under B and C sure, but I would suspect that most of them would be under category A which was limited only to groups specified earlier.
I suppose I'm an optimist.
I like to think no CAF member would stoop to fraud for 5k, knowing this is meant for those victimized.
It would be like taking food from a food bank when you have PLENTY of means.
 

OldSolduer

Army.ca Myth
Reaction score
5,832
Points
1,110
I suppose I'm an optimist.
I like to think no CAF member would stoop to fraud for 5k, knowing this is meant for those victimized.
It would be like taking food from a food bank when you have PLENTY of means.
After all the "ethics" training the CAF has undergone over the past 30 years you'd think this wouldn't happen...right?
 

grayzone

Guest
Reaction score
11
Points
180
Why does it have to be one or the other – why can’t both views be correct and supported? In order to be considered as a member of the Class Action you had to answer yes to the following question:

“Have you been a woman, identify as a woman or a person who identifies as LGBTQ2+”

That was the criteria to be able to apply for compensation under the Class Action.

I am sure that there are some men who lied on the application to get some money. There were most likely some women who also may have stretched the truth to get money. There were also many, many legitimate claims that were filed as well.

The problem is that if the above is all true (and I believe it is), there are a number of issues that arise:

  • The application process lends itself to fraud as, to the best of my knowledge, there was no “check” or other way to verify if someone was not being truthful.
  • It becomes difficult to back up or believe any so called “facts” that are based upon the data that was collected form the applications.
  • Anyone who fraudulently applied received/will receive money they are not entitled to.
  • Fraudulent applications take away from some of the legitimacy and feelings of justice from those who were legitimately affected by this. Nothing gets people angrier than knowing that others are illegitimately benefiting from their pain and suffering.
  • The people who have legitimate claims under Part B and C of the Class Action (anything other than the $5k) have their claims settled based upon the money that is left over after the $5k settlements are paid. Therefore, the more fraudulent claims that are paid, the less money that there is to split up for the legitimate claims.

This is just my take on things. There are many angles to this, but in the end, the fraudulent claims take money and justice away from the legitimate ones and makes any “factual statements” about the data questionable at best.
(for readers' SA)
All of the
above only applies to Category A of the claim.

Category B1, B2, and C, are open to all members who were subject to sexual misconduct, regardless of gender.
 
Reaction score
5
Points
230
I suppose I'm an optimist.
I like to think no CAF member would stoop to fraud for 5k, knowing this is meant for those victimized.
It would be like taking food from a food bank when you have PLENTY of means.

Yes you would think, but unfortunately I believe these people do exists.

This was the intent of my initial post. As someone who is a legitimate applicant, I appreciate those who are attempting to shine a light on the fact that there are some who took advantage of the situation for easy money. My post was intended to show what the fraudulent activity means in the larger perspective.

I also wanted to indicate that just because there are people who want to shine the light on this fraud, it does not mean that they do not believe people who claim they are victims. In my opinion, bringing to light the fraud could very well be seen as supporting the legitimate claimants.

I guess it is just a matter of perspective.

Thank you to all who provide support to victims - I can say from personal experience that it is much appreciated.
 

Navy_Pete

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
2,585
Points
1,040
I suppose I'm an optimist.
I like to think no CAF member would stoop to fraud for 5k, knowing this is meant for those victimized.
It would be like taking food from a food bank when you have PLENTY of means.
And yet there are still CAF members who regularly get CMd for fraud well under $5k....

I should preface this by saying it's a total outlier, but do know one person that was bragging they got 'free money' from this fund and was encouraging others to apply as well. They got absolutely pilloried for it, and really just cemented my decision to cut them out of my life, but sadly yes, those people do exist. If I had any real proof I'd report them as a fraud, but it'd be easy enough for them to just make something up anyway and they'd have no issue with lying, so not worth the hassle.

My perspective on this is that the vast majority have legitimate claims, and there will always be that one unkillable cockroach skuttling around in the dark. The 99.9% of claimants have legitimate issues that some money won't fix, and probably way more that will not put in a claim but would qualify. Any kind of process to 'screen' applications would cost a fortune and be likely brutal for the vast majority of applicants, so the very small amount lost to fraud is just part of the cost.

This settlement won't actually fix anything, but hopefully is helpful for the victims to get some kind of sense of closure, as the justice and administrative system are pretty crap at that, especially a he said/she said kind of scenario.
 

coolintheshade

Jr. Member
Reaction score
21
Points
210
I suppose I'm an optimist.
I like to think no CAF member would stoop to fraud for 5k, knowing this is meant for those victimized.
It would be like taking food from a food bank when you have PLENTY of means.
Ah, I won't hold my breathe. $$$$ brings out the worst in people i.e. greed. Current state of affairs last 2yrs isn't helping either i.e. economy, housing, grocery prices. There will be folks trying to pull a fast one, just like some people do falsifying their Force test, and other things. Bottomline, wherever there is money to be had, people show their true identity. For those that have been through a divorce, I'm sure you've seen what that 'sweet person' you thought you knew, turned to after all.
 

Brad Sallows

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
4,102
Points
1,010
Any kind of entitlement* program is likely to be subject to some amount of fraud. Doesn't mean the program shouldn't go forward.

*I don't mean "welfare", but I do mean "something people meeting the criteria are allowed to claim".
 

Fishbone Jones

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
1,455
Points
1,060
Ottawa is not paying for anything. Not abuse payments, CERB or anything else. We are paying for it (taxpayers). He just makes the announcement and takes the credit.
 

AKa

Member
Reaction score
76
Points
480
As a participant, I'll offer what I have seen/experienced.

My initial reaction, was "hell no, don't wanna go there". Didn't even see it as relevant to myself. Several of my friends felt the same way.

Some of us ended up participating and some of us found it an oddly triggering exercise wherein we acknowledged varying degrees of old hurts. Some with significant traumas refused to participate, unable to trust the govt not to use this an as opportunity to hurt them again.

For me, it felt like a minor vindication. An official recognition that some of the shite I experienced was not all right. I declined the offered mediation process. I did name some names and deliberately chose to not name others. There does not appear to have been any movement to address or verify historic non-criminal misconduct based on class action submissions. I personally have no interest in seeing any of these individuals ever again but I do trust/hope they have progressed as human beings in the last few decades.

I'm sure there are a few applicants that have either exaggerated or made up their submissions. And I doubt it will ever come to light. But I do have an unsubstantiated believe that karma comes around for us all eventually. Helps me sleep at night.

Cheers,

AKa
 

coolintheshade

Jr. Member
Reaction score
21
Points
210
Some times you don't have to go through a divorce.....
...yes, just end up living like room mates until the kids grow up, and then split when there is nothing to hold you together. Many couples have been doing this in the last 2yrs because of the pandemic i.e. living miserably under house arrest.
 

The Bread Guy

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
2,623
Points
1,260
Bit of a tweak here ...
... Class members have indicated that the duty to report poses challenges to the success of the Restorative Engagement program. The duty to report would require the CAF Defence representatives who have volunteered to listen, acknowledge and learn from class members’ experiences, to report incidents of wrongdoing, regardless of whether the affected person is ready or wants to report them.

DND/CAF acknowledges that confidentiality is a critical component of any restorative process, and it is hoped that this amendment will help build trust between all involved and enable all participants to have honest and open conversations. This amendment does not limit a class member’s ability to report their own experiences of sexual misconduct; it removes the legal obligation of CAF members to report in the context of restorative engagement ...
 
Top