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Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]

Bruce Monkhouse said:
Seriously, "Bloggins, we're ordering you to have a home phone and a cell phone?"
I Interpreted the opening scenario to be that the individual had neither land line more cell phone.  It is not uncommon that young troops have only a cell phone these days.  If it goes down, they suddenly have no means of contact (that also seems to happen a lot), and the onus is on the member to re-establish that means of contact.
 
Tcm621 said:
If you are on 24 hour stand by, recallable at anytime on short notice then the Cf should provide you with a duty phone or paper.

I have to disagree.  An Infantry Company on IRU should not have to provide a duty phone or pager.  The CAF simply does not have the funds to splurge on supplying Units with cell phones or pagers.  As you also mentioned, anyone without a cell or landline most likely has some serious financial issues that may require an administrative review.

Something like a Battalion Duty Officer/NCO should certainly be provided with communications as I know my former Unit did, but to expect the Units to provide mass communications for all it's soldiers on IRU is not economically viable as Units simply would not have the funds in their respective budgets for such a luxury.
 
Tcm621 said:
Otherwise, as long you are capable of checking in every 3 days, You should be good. (my understanding is the entire CAF is basically on 72 hour notice) if you work 8 to 4 Monday to Friday, you should be good.

I think there is a lot of misconception of when we are 'on duty', 'working', people think on Class B, C or Reg force they are not subject to duty at whatever times. 

This is the world as I believe it to be for anyone serving other than Cl A PRes, based on the web of CF, Command, Base and Unit policies I've seen over the years:

1)  You are either on leave, or you are technically on duty. 

2) During all that time you aren't on leave, and technically on duty, you are NORMALLY only required to be AT your place of duty during (what are supposed to be) published working hours, or during any scheduled event/time/shiftwork schedule, etc.

3) despite the published NORMAL duty/working hours for units, there is a requirement to work outside those hours and mbr's are expected to work then.  There is no such thing a 'overtime'; we are already paid for it in the X/Military Factor in our pay. 

4) You have a responsibility to provide your CofC with accurate contact information - because if you aren't on Leave with a signed leave pass, you are technically available 'on duty' even during the times you are not required to be at your place of duty/work.  If I don't have a weekend leave pass in and am sitting home on Sunday, the CO doesn't have to recall me from leave because I am not ON leave.  I can simply be told to report to work by "X time".

I'd be curious to see how a challenge to this would be reviewed by the MEGRC and what their analysis of the various policies and regulations would produce in the F & R;  I'd bet a months pay it would result in "there is a requirement to be avail for duty anytime a mbr is not on a leave pass, there is a requirement for the CofC to be able to contact members, and therefore the mbr must be able to provide means of contact".

If I had a member who refused to get a landline or cell phone and provided their home address for a POC, I'd be advising them they'd better remain at that exact location at any and all times they are not on a signed leave pass.  Having a cell phone is really for MY convenience, not the CFs - as I said I hold Ready status/standby regularly and often for a week or more at a time.  Providing my cell phone means I can leave my home and still meet my duty requirements. 

WAY too many B/C Class and Reg Force mbrs today think they 'have an 8 to 4, Mon to Fri' job.  I recall years ago while at a CBG HQ, being told by Cl B mbrs they 'weren't able to work on the weekend of the Bde EX' as I was the HQ "S & D" force 2 I/C.  And was told "well, I won't be here, I don't work extra".  This was another Sgt saying this to me.  I wanted to laugh, I wanted to hit the mbr with something for such fucktard-like thinking, but I elected to have them discuss their availability with the HQ Sgt-Major.  Problem solved.  ;D
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
EDIT: Yes I have TI but get used to the fact that the kids today are not as stupid as you and I were...........they will ask and, as far as I'm concerned, 'authority' has a duty to present 'black and white'. [to use your words]

From the QR&O's;
1.12 - REGULATIONS AND ORDERS TO BE AVAILABLE TO MEMBERS

A commanding officer shall cause regulations and orders issued in implementation of the National Defence Act to be readily available to all members whom they concern.

So there it is in black and white.... Max is certainly within his lanes to ask, and Bruce backing him up is to his credit.  There's always the argument of "Well, common sense should tell you....." but his request for something in black and white spelling it out exactly is not wrong.

At the same time, I can also see where George is coming from, and I agree (as does everyone else whose posts I've read, that part doesn't seem to be in doubt) that all members should keep serviceable comms with their C-o-C, but the original query is certainly valid...

Perhaps individual Units should amend their Regimental Standing Orders to state the obvious in black and white?
 
reccecrewman said:
From the QR&O's;
1.12 - REGULATIONS AND ORDERS TO BE AVAILABLE TO MEMBERS

A commanding officer shall cause regulations and orders issued in implementation of the National Defence Act to be readily available to all members whom they concern.

So there it is in black and white.... Max is certainly within his lanes to ask, and Bruce backing him up is to his credit.  There's always the argument of "Well, common sense should tell you....." but his request for something in black and white spelling it out exactly is not wrong.

At the same time, I can also see where George is coming from, and I agree (as does everyone else whose posts I've read, that part doesn't seem to be in doubt) that all members should keep serviceable comms with their C-o-C, but the original query is certainly valid...

Perhaps individual Units should amend their Regimental Standing Orders to state the obvious in black and white?

Can't speak for all units, but there is a Squadron Order where I am posted that outlines the requirements for contact info, recall, increased ready state/standby crews, etc.

All unit members, regardless of trade, are required to read Sqn Os upon arrival, and Sqn O's that are amended are emailed to the entire Sqn once amended.  Pretty hard to claim "I didn't know!" at my unit.
 
reccecrewman said:
At the same time, I can also see where George is coming from, and I agree (as does everyone else whose posts I've read, that part doesn't seem to be in doubt) that all members should keep serviceable comms with their C-o-C, but the original query is certainly valid...

Allow me to disagree.

First of all, what on earth are "serviceable comms"? Is regular mail serviceable comms?

We work in an environment where recalls are always possible, and as a result we are paid on a 24hrs/7days/12 months basis, not by the hour. However, even that does not make us slaves at the foot of our master on beck and call. The responsibility of the members is to keep his/her contact information up to date with his chain of command. That's it. It is up to the chain of command to then arrange its recall organization accordingly. This is why, in most military towns, the recall org includes contact info for the various electronic medias in order to reach members not otherwise in touch (just like school closings) and the contact info for the  bars and clubs most popular with the members.

No member can be forced to equip himself/herself with specific means of communication at his own expense. No member of the forces can be ordered to equip himself/herself with a cell phone, no matter how prevalent in society.
It is the member's choice and if he/she elects to do so, then his/her obligation is to provide the info to his C.o.C.

On the other hand, the member has a responsibility to keep in touch with hi/her unit at reasonable intervals based on the status of the unit. If you are on standby, then you either stay within hearing distance of a phone you gave your unit the number of, or you call in at very frequent intervals.

But if you are home for the evening or the week-end and you unit is on regular 24hrs/48hrs notice, you have no obligation to be reachable. You can feel free to go about your business without a cell phone on: so go ahead, turn it off while you go watch a three hour long movie, or suffer a 4 hours long German opera, or for 9 hours while you are out skiing. You are entitled to that.
 
Tcm621 said:
If you are on 24 hour stand by, recallable at anytime on short notice then the Cf should provide you with a duty phone or paper.

If you are on 24 hours notice to move you should have some way to be notified in which you could reply with the day.  This could be an online voice mail, land line with answering machine, cell phone etc.

Otherwise, as long you are capable of checking in every 3 days, You should be good. (my understanding is the entire CAF is basically on 72 hour notice) if you work 8 to 4 Monday to Friday, you should be good.

Which of the above ( if any ) would likely apply the military occupation ( Firefighter ) of the Original Poster? My understanding of Standby and Call-Back in emergency services is 90 minutes.

Edit to add from the OP: "The argument of my superior was that things are different because we are in the emergency services"

 
So, let's look at another side of this issue.

Bloggins, who has no phone, is sitting at home after work.  The unit gets a call from the Base CWO that he has 50 club level suite tickets to a NHL playoff game for deserving troops.  First come- first served.  But it's after hours and only those troops who anser their phones, get a shot at the seats.

Fast forward to later when Bloggins is watching the game on TV and sees members of his unit, his buddies, sitting in the suites, with free drinks and free food.  One holds up a handmade sign.  "Bloggins - wish you were here!  LOL!!!" 

Karma sucks, doesn't it?
 
Well, your example is not fair:

What if he has a phone, but is in the crapper when the call comes in and he doesn't get it on time?

What if he has a phone, but he is out walking the dog?

And you are only using "Bloggins" because his name starts with B so he would be among the first called. There would be no tickets left by the time we get to "Zucker".

All of this is Karma?
 
Haggis said:
So, let's look at another side of this issue.

Bloggins, who has no phone, is sitting at home after work.  The unit gets a call from the Base CWO that he has 50 club level suite tickets to a NHL playoff game for deserving troops.  First come- first served.  But it's after hours and only those troops who anser their phones, get a shot at the seats.

Fast forward to later when Bloggins is watching the game on TV and sees members of his unit, his buddies, sitting in the suites, with free drinks and free food.  One holds up a handmade sign.  "Bloggins - wish you were here!  LOL!!!" 

Karma sucks, doesn't it?

Bloggins would notice there is someone of a higher rank (how dare they get a good go) and put in a grievance that his chain of command didn't drive out of their way to his house to contact him while simultaneously dropping the story to the media that troops are getting shafted by leaders.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Well, your example is not fair:

What if he has a phone, but is in the crapper when the call comes in and he doesn't get it on time?
His CSM leaves him a voice mail with 20 minutes to call back.  If he's on the can for more than 20 minutes he should be on sick parade. :)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
What if he has a phone, but he is out walking the dog?
Then the dog should be on sick parade.

Oldgateboatdriver said:
And you are only using "Bloggins" because his name starts with B so he would be among the first called. There would be no tickets left by the time we get to "Zucker".

What if all the troops whose names begin with C to Y are all bags of hammers?  Maybe Bloggins is actually a far better soldier than common lore leads us to believe.
 
Sheep Dog AT said:
Does is say in writing I have to be at work at 07:30?

I know the RCD has it there in their Routine Orders the hours of the working day in Garrison and yes, 7:30 P.T is the start of the work day, followed by Showers/Coffee Break at 8:30-9:30, Stables from 9:30-11:30, Lunch 11:30-12:30, Stables/Lectures/Classes 12:30-4:00.

I would imagine all Units are similar.
 
I don't see this as being anything more than a "liability" to serve scenario.

NDA Sect 33 --->  http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/n-5/page-15.html#h-23

Service - Liability in case of regular force

33. (1) The regular force, all units and other elements thereof and all officers and non-commissioned members thereof are at all times liable to perform any lawful duty.

Seems pretty simple to me.  If there is no means by which you are able to be recalled to duty within a "reasonable" amount of time because of the simple fact that you "refuse" to get a phone, then it could very well become an issue of "trust" and or "ethics" in support of the CAF mission.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about/statement-of-defence-ethics.page

Personally, I truly HATE getting a phone call, when I'm not tagged for duty and where the CO starts off with the statement "Sorry to be calling but you are the first guy I've been able to get ahold of."
 
I guess that then raises the question - barring any unit specific mandated NTM postures, what's considered "reasonable time?"
 
George Wallace said:
Yes you are.  Another little Article from the NDA; Article 88 - Desertion

There you have it in writing. 

Happy?

George,

How can you say someone has the intention not to serve (all paras of include the act AND the intention) only because the person doesn't have a phone?

Just or the record, I think every reasonable person will agree that they need a phone (as part of any work really), but if you want to legally order someone to get a phone at his expense (or charge someone for not having one), you need more substantiation than what has been provided so far.
 
mariomike said:
Which of the above ( if any ) would likely apply the military occupation ( Firefighter ) of the Original Poster? My understanding of Standby and Call-Back in emergency services is 90 minutes.

Edit to add from the OP: "The argument of my superior was that things are different because we are in the emergency services"
That is a good point.  In this case a pager is a could be a solution. A lot of EMS types carry them when they are on standby.

Where I work it is common to be on 30 minute standby, for about a month at a time. When we are, a pager is issued for call outs.

Otherwise, I get a message when I get it.  If it is an emergency where they are recalling everyone, run Papa up the flag pole and make an announcement on the radio. Call everyone you can and go from there. You are bound to miss some but you will get almost everyone.

I am not defending a guy who refuses to get a phone out of spite but if a guy can't have a phone for awhile, he isn't necessarily deserting. I mean, what was the context here?  Was it a case where the guy was required for an operational reason or was it a matter of his boss wanted to talk to him about administrative matters? These factors make a huge difference.
 
Navy side here, when my ship was designated ready duty ship, usually the order was if you were away from your normal method of contact(e.g. a landline, or had none) for 4 hours or more, you had to call in or physically report to the quartermaster and inquire if there was a status change. 
 
I think we're all pretty much saying the same things here:

1. There is no requirement to have a telephone;
2. Members must be reachable in a reasonable manner and time;
3. Normal duty hours are not exclusive; and
4. All members, save Class A, are liable for duty at any time.

Where there is no statute that provides the CF order one to have a telephone, all members must accept that they have a responsibility to reconcile the four provisions stated above. Clearly there is some discussion and interpretation to be had regarding what defines reasonable manner and time.

It's not just about being able to call a member back to the unit, but we don't have to pick fly dung out of pepper. Being able to contact members when they're away from work is also part of looking after their welfare. For example, how long do we accept that a member is "off the grid" before we become concerned that something bad has happened to them? That being said, unless you're part of the command team, there should in most instances be no need to contact members with trivial concerns outside of normal duty hours. Unless you need face time with the member, it can wait.

My final observation would be that there is the real risk that the conscientious may be more frequently tasked than the sh!tpumps, solely because they can be relied upon to return one's calls. Humans being the inherently lazy things we are will default to our reliable personnel first.
 
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