Operation LENTUS – Domestic Operations 2018 - current [Merged]

[Humphrey Bogart]

Remind me again why we are sending soldiers to dig Newfoundland out?  Did they run out of shovels or something?

I grew up in one of the worst snow belts in all of Canada where it isn't uncommon to have 500cm a year of snow that stays on the ground for months on end. The thought of the Army being deployed seems like a massive waste of money and time unless there is something I'm missing?

 

[brihard]

Every picture that shows up on social media of a handful of troops standing around holding shovels next to a smiling grandmother who was just freed from her basement apartment is a huge public relations win for the forces...

Don't forget, the average Canadian is only vaguely aware Canada has an army/navy/air force...

While it may not be beneficial for fighting skills, every aid to civil power is at least a very effective exercise of logistics...

Rick Hillier’s 2CMBG circa the Ontario Ice Storm. That did a lot to swing public opinion in the wake of the Somalia debacle

 

[daftandbarmy]

Remind me again why we are sending soldiers to dig Newfoundland out?  Did they run out of shovels or something?

I grew up in one of the worst snow belts in all of Canada where it isn't uncommon to have 500cm a year of snow that stays on the ground for months on end. The thought of the Army being deployed seems like a massive waste of money and time unless there is something I'm missing?

You down homers are just jealous that the neighbors are getting all the attention

 

[OldSolduer]

Rick Hillier’s 2CMBG circa the Ontario Ice Storm. That did a lot to swing public opinion in the wake of the Somalia debacle

The flood of 1997 in Manitoba as well.

 

[Old Sweat]

The flood of 1997 in Manitoba as well.

I was going to post on this operation as well as the one Brihard cited. You may recall that before the troops deployed for the Manitoba flood, an academic, who had submitted very negative material to the Somalia enquiry, was cited opposing the use of troops. Her point was that militaries were made up of criminals recruited to avoid prison sentences, and, instead of performing flood control, would spend their time looting evacuated communities.

Also, our little town was without hydro for a week in the ice storm. The arrival of troops was welcomed wholeheartedly, and a few weeks later, when a couple of vehicles with driver training signs appeared, people lined the streets to applaud them. And the same thing happened when 3RCR did an exercise in our area to prepare for a deployment to the Balkans.

And my wife, shortly after the troops arrived post Ice storm, told two young lads from the 10th Field Battery, 56th Field Regiment, that she had forgotten how handsome young gunner were. The two lads were taken aback, as if they had failed into a cougar's lair, until I told them she was prejudiced as she had married one.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Remind me again why we are sending soldiers to dig Newfoundland out?  Did they run out of shovels or something?

I grew up in one of the worst snow belts in all of Canada where it isn't uncommon to have 500cm a year of snow that stays on the ground for months on end. The thought of the Army being deployed seems like a massive waste of money and time unless there is something I'm missing?

I've also questioned some of the uses of Canadian military in assistance to civil authority operations.  My opinion is that Canada should have taken better steps to develop "volunteer" civil assistance (read disaster) response organizations such as can be found in many European countries (Germany is a good example that I'm familiar with) or similarly Australia (another good example - one that is stretched pretty thin at the moment).  However, since we have a pretty poor record (even going back to civil defence during wars both hot and cold) with organizations who can provide such "guaranteed" response, we are left with the CF being a primary (or secondary) responder.

As for the snow storm in Newfoundland - well, the optics of deploying to handle snow were put in the eye-rolling category a couple of decades ago by a Toronto mayor.  I don't know the problems caused by snow in that situation and other than speaking to family members who are currently facing the closure of everything, I have no first hand knowledge of the situation on the Rock at the moment.  But seeing some of the scenes of St. John 's (and recognizing streets that I was familiar with as a young rascal), I think I'm safe saying that some assistance is probably needed.  It may seem a little basic to shovel a path to someone's home, but with the greying population of Newfoundland there were some who were trapped inside.  My older brother had called me during the storm and we reminisced about some of the heavy snowfalls of our youth.  At the time he had been outside during the snowstorm trying to keep at least an emergency exit clear enough to be able to open.  He also related that there had been an avalanche in The Battery (it's a part of town at the foot of Signal Hill near the entrance to the harbour) - back about sixty years ago following a similar heavy snowfall, there had been another avalanche in The Battery that resulted in a couple of deaths (family of an uncle by marriage).  Luckily, this latest avalanche was without major injury but supposedly it took the fire department about three hours to get to the location to assist in recovery and evacuation of the rest of the community (it would normally take the FD not much more than several minutes to travel that distance).

 

[dapaterson]

And my wife, shortly after the troops arrived post Ice storm, told two young lads from the 10th Field Battery, 56th Field Regiment, that she had forgotten how handsome young gunner were.

Clearly, your decision to commission had a long-term family impact.

 

[Remius]

I grew up in one of the worst snow belts in all of Canada where it isn't uncommon to have 500cm a year of snow that stays on the ground for months on end.

Ah yes.  500cm in a year.  I believe they got almost twice that in two days.  That is a lot by any standard.  Then the 100km winds that came after to harden everything up.

Newfoundlanders are pretty hardy folk.  If they requested and welcomed military assistance then I will give them The benefit of the doubt that it was or is required.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Ah yes.  500cm in a year.  I believe they got almost twice that in two days.  That is a lot by any standard.  Then the 100km winds that came after to harden everything up.

Newfoundlanders are pretty hardy folk.  If they requested and welcomed military assistance then I will give them The benefit of the doubt that it was or is required.

They got 5 meters of snow in two days? I think you might want to fact check that  :rofl:

The highest was actually 93cm observed outside St John's, here you go:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/6434019/newfoundland-snow-environment-canada/amp/

So, they didn't even break a 100cm and they called in the Military?! 

From what I have heard, CAF members showed up, went to Home Hardware and bought some shovels and snowblowers off the economy.  Something any able bodied individual should be able to do. 

I guess St John's was the home of TMLs farm team so they must have more in common than we thought!  Gigantic waste of money and misuse of military resources. 

 

[Cloud Cover]

I've also questioned some of the uses of Canadian military in assistance to civil authority operations.  My opinion is that Canada should have taken better steps to develop "volunteer" civil assistance (read disaster) response organizations such as can be found in many European countries (Germany is a good example that I'm familiar with) or similarly Australia (another good example - one that is stretched pretty thin at the moment).  However, since we have a pretty poor record (even going back to civil defence during wars both hot and cold) with organizations who can provide such "guaranteed" response, we are left with the CF being a primary (or secondary) responder.

As for the snow storm in Newfoundland - well, the optics of deploying to handle snow were put in the eye-rolling category a couple of decades ago by a Toronto mayor.  I don't know the problems caused by snow in that situation and other than speaking to family members who are currently facing the closure of everything

Yep. It’s time for a proper civil defence corps to be structured and equipped for climate events and natural disasters. That means an end to political and media drama queens and getting serious about what life is like in a climate extreme era.  Frankly, I don’t trust the federal government to get it done, so the provinces should just get started with no expectation of anything useful from Ottawa.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Yep. It’s time for a proper civil defence corps to be structured and equipped for climate events and natural disasters. That means an end to political and media drama queens and getting serious about what life is like in a climate extreme era.  Frankly, I don’t trust the federal government to get it done, so the provinces should just get started with no expectation of anything useful from Ottawa.

This isn't to say it doesn't suck getting bombed with 100cm of snow because it def does (I've been there).  I can't help but think the only reason we even heard anything about this is because it happened to be in the provincial capital as opposed to somewhere else. 

Sounds like St Johners need to invest in a nice big shovel and possibly a skidoo.  We always loved big snowstorms growing up, nothing beats the fresh powder!

 

[Remius]

They got 5 meters of snow in two days? I think you might want to fact check that  :rofl:

The highest was actually 93cm observed outside St John's, here you go:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/6434019/newfoundland-snow-environment-canada/amp/

So, they didn't even break a 100cm and they called in the Military?! 

From what I have heard, CAF members showed up, went to Home Hardware and bought some shovels and snowblowers off the economy.  Something any able bodied individual should be able to do. 

I guess St John's was the home of TMLs farm team so they must have more in common than we thought!  Gigantic waste of money and misuse of military resources.

Gah.  Stupid math on my part.

Regardless, 90 cms of snow in that time frame with the wind they had is still serious enough.  hurrican force winds created 12 foot snowdrifts that you have to carve out rather than shovel out.

Here is a quick run down of record snow storms.  This one seems to be in the higher values on that list. Plus if it is an area that isn’t used to snow like that then it compounds the issue.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/blasts-from-the-past-canada-s-worst-snowstorms-1.1370387

 

[Remius]

This isn't to say it doesn't suck getting bombed with 100cm of snow because it def does (I've been there).  I can't help but think the only reason we even heard anything about this is because it happened to be in the provincial capital as opposed to somewhere else. 

Sounds like St Johners need to invest in a nice big shovel and possibly a skidoo.  We always loved big snowstorms growing up, nothing beats the fresh powder!

Fresh powder is nice unless it gets hardened by hurricane force winds creating 12 foot drifts.  I’m sure everyone has a shovel in Nfld.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Gah.  Stupid math on my part.

Regardless, 90 cms of snow in that time frame with the wind they had is still serious enough.  hurrican force winds created 12 foot snowdrifts that you have to carve out rather than shovel out.

Here is a quick run down of record snow storms.  This one seems to be in the higher values on that list. Plus if it is an area that isn’t used to snow like that then it compounds the issue.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/blasts-from-the-past-canada-s-worst-snowstorms-1.1370387

It is a very good dumping of snow.  Apologies for being a bit condescending earlier but I'm still not buying that the Military was needed this, at all.  I've  seen worse storms in the past 15-20 years out there.

My guess is if this had been Corner Brook vice St John's, no Military would have been called.  It's  all about that perception of doing something.

One positive is someone might get hitched  :rofl: if Twitter is anything to go by.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Humphrey Bogart] Apologies for being a bit condescending earlier but I'm still not buying that the Military was needed this, at all.  I've  seen worse storms in the past 15-20 years out there.

My guess is if this had been Corner Brook vice St John's, no Military would have been called.  It's  all about that perception of doing something.
[/quote]editing for lenght

Inclined to agree.

No doubt there's people suffering there. I've also seen a lot of pictures of people out having fun. Maybe dig your neighbour out before you go snowboarding behind a skidoo.




As well maybe the CAF needs some DART style deployment kits for forest fires, floods and snow storms if that's our new thing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think I'm inclined to agree with you.

It somewhat reminds me about a debate about using rear party soldiers. A mostly deployed unit gets a call that WO or Capt so and so's wife needs someone to go shovel their drive way so send a bunch of privates from the rear party to go and shovel.

She probably has 500 friends on her Facebook friends list why can't she ask one of them? Or pay a company to do it.

No doubt there's people suffering there. I've also seen a lot of pictures of people out having fun. Maybe dig your neighbour out before you go snowboarding behind a skidoo.

You mean... just like the snowstorm of '96 that buried Victoria, and all the Regular Force sailors who watched - nice and warm -  from their accommodation while the Reservists shoveled out their Canex so they could go get more smokes? 

As I recall from that snow-pocalypse, the major issue was trying to keep the hospitals running. For a couple of days, our 6 wheeled drives vehicles were the only ones that could get through the snow to deliver dialysis patients, do hospital staff changeovers, and get the ambulances through etc.

 

[OldSolduer]

It is a very good dumping of snow.  Apologies for being a bit condescending earlier but I'm still not buying that the Military was needed this, at all.  I've  seen worse storms in the past 15-20 years out there.

My guess is if this had been Corner Brook vice St John's, no Military would have been called.  It's  all about that perception of doing something.

One positive is someone might get hitched  :rofl: if Twitter is anything to go by.

Over the last few decades “self reliance” has not been part of the narrative. The “go to” solution is to demand someone else take care of your issues.