One in five students lose money by going to university, IFS finds

[LittleBlackDevil]

I came into the Army as an officer with a Grade 13 (Yup I'm that old) and could have done so with a Grade 11. Never could understand what a university education gives today's officer candidates other that four more years of living.

:cheers:

Four more years of living is not inconsequential in my view, but I speak only from personal experience and do not purport to speak more broadly.

Just thinking of myself, I was commissioned as an officer at age 19. I had grade 12 and was in the reserves, so was working on my Bachelor of Arts but didn't have it yet. Looking back, I tend to think I was a bit too young and immature to be an officer ... four more years of life may have made me a bit better of an officer. But on the other hand was there a huge difference between 19 and 23? Not sure. Maybe it was the training. I found that BIOC Phase II and III taught me how to be a really good soldier and tough as nails, but I did not feel like I knew how to be an officer beyond leading a platoon level attack or defence in the field.

So in lieu of university I would be in favour of something like what you described, a programme like the Staff School you described and other training focused on developing leaders.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Okay. So you get the casting vote in this debate. Who made the better officer? The non graduates? or the graduates? Or was there any discernible difference?

:cheers:

Well, of course me because the older I get, the better I was!

After about two years the non-graduates got their second pip. So here I was, an experienced Pl Comd with a NI tour and a couple of Norway deployments/ Airborne exercises/ live fire exercises overseas etc under my belt, and a 'graduate' would waltz in and automatically get paid more than me and have a higher rank. Of course, this rankled a bit.

Nonetheless, after about three or four years everyone was kind of was the same with your usual proportion of 'duds' from both sides. The training at Sandhurst is essentially the same, so no real favours there. If anything, it was harder on the graduates as they had had alot of 'freedom' at university, then got their heads shorn and rammed into the ranks on the (very noisy) parade square.  Some of my best friends continue to be from the graduate entry (but just don't tell anyone ).

However, in the longer term, the deck was stacked against the non-grads due the the lack of a degree which, at that time, the British Army was not at all interested in paying for, which was one of the things that made me decide to leave.

 

[YZT580]

There are two totally separate issues here.  First of all, the ability to lead people cannot be taught in a classroom environment.  It is acquired primarily through experience and is a gradual process. That is why you start as a 2nd lieutenant and spend decades working your way up to a senior leadership rank.  Also, it is a unique skill: not everyone can be a leader in fact, good leaders are a rare commodity.  Which does not mean that a leader does not require knowledge but that is the second issue and should be kept divorced from the leadership selection process.  It is better to find the leader and then provide him with the knowledge/skills needed to do his job than to start with the knowledge and attempt to create the leader.  This is a waste of resources simply because of the time wasted on someone with the knowledge who couldn't organise a beer tasting session at a brewery.  There are only a finite number of man years available and having a position blocked by someone who can't do it is a frightful waste.  Although it had significant limitations, the British navy started its officer training with young teenagers (even in the 20th century).  By the time they were of college age, the potential leaders had been identified and marked for promotion.  Perhaps this would be a good use for the cadet programme.  But at any rate, find the leaders then provide the university

 

[daftandbarmy]

There are two totally separate issues here.  First of all, the ability to lead people cannot be taught in a classroom environment.  It is acquired primarily through experience and is a gradual process. That is why you start as a 2nd lieutenant and spend decades working your way up to a senior leadership rank.  Also, it is a unique skill: not everyone can be a leader in fact, good leaders are a rare commodity.  Which does not mean that a leader does not require knowledge but that is the second issue and should be kept divorced from the leadership selection process.  It is better to find the leader and then provide him with the knowledge/skills needed to do his job than to start with the knowledge and attempt to create the leader.  This is a waste of resources simply because of the time wasted on someone with the knowledge who couldn't organise a beer tasting session at a brewery.  There are only a finite number of man years available and having a position blocked by someone who can't do it is a frightful waste.  Although it had significant limitations, the British navy started its officer training with young teenagers (even in the 20th century).  By the time they were of college age, the potential leaders had been identified and marked for promotion.  Perhaps this would be a good use for the cadet programme.  But at any rate, find the leaders then provide the university

"Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do." 

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

 

[mariomike]

I tell my own children to keep "blue collar" jobs in mind as an option when thinking about what they want to do in life.

I was a blue-collar guy.

In Ontario, that job requires, at a minimum, a two-year college diploma, among other qualifications, just to apply,

The four-year university degree is preferred. 

Over the course of four years of study, students receive an Honors Bachelor of Science from the University of Toronto and a Paramedic Diploma from Centennial College.

https://utsc.calendar.utoronto.ca/specialist-joint-program-paramedicine-science

https://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/jtprogs/paramedicine-course-sequence

https://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/jtprogs/course-calendar-program-requirements-1