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On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.

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Actually the first and last posts are both good examples*. One of the problem, and the other of the solution. I think we have to resign ourselves to the fact we'll never stem the tide of repeat questions... it's something we'll just have to live with.

But we do seem to be getting better at handling these situations. I've seen a few senior members and Mentors jump in positively recently, and I think it's an upward trend. Here's hoping it is, and thanks to those who have taken the time to make it work that way.

* Sorry Danjanou... your post is funny... didn't mean to leave it out. ;)
 
  I was thinking about the issue, and had a bit of a realization here....Keep in mind guys who we're dealing with here for the most part.  One of the worlds most annoying type of person(no offence!),lol.............teenagers. :p

  Perhaps we expect too much common sense from a group of people who are infamous for not having any common sense, life experince, maturity, etc..etc?
  Just a thought.
   
 
 
TangoHotel said:
  I was thinking about the issue, and had a bit of a realization here....Keep in mind guys who we're dealing with here for the most part.  One of the worlds most annoying type of person(no offence!),lol.............teenagers. :p

  Perhaps we expect too much common sense from a group of people who are infamous for not having any common sense, life experince, maturity, etc..etc?
  Just a thought.

Some of these teenagers are in their Thirties and never left home.
 
TangoHotel said:
  I was thinking about the issue, and had a bit of a realization here....Keep in mind guys who we're dealing with here for the most part.  One of the worlds most annoying type of person(no offence!),lol.............teenagers. :p

  Perhaps we expect too much common sense from a group of people who are infamous for not having any common sense, life experince, maturity, etc..etc?
  Just a thought.

You mean that same group that produces the people who say we should teat them like adults based solely on the fact that they can legally drive, or vote, or smoke, or join the army.  How about the ones that smoke dope, and then act surprised that their conscious illegal actions have repercussions when they go to the Recruiting Centre?  And it's certainly not all of them, just the few, of whichever age-group, that manage to out themselves as less than mature, or less than diligent in helping themselves to the information here, before asking their own original question about pilots and eyesight, or infantry and education, or whether they get to choose their own personal weapon, or .... [insert favourite eye-roll topic here].  We just hope that each new poster tries to achieve the average level of common sense before adding another bad-width sucking simplistic repetitive question or suggestion to the forums.

And this type of topic is becoming another one of those subjects.
 
My two cents:

A good thread, which I think will periodically be revived as we continually get new members.  This issue is never going to disappear completely.

I think most of the issues could be solved by courteous and helpful suggestions to adapt, and in some cases, correct behaviour of junior members.  By behaviour, I mean the common issues of Poor Posting Protocol (P3)™ ;)  from our perspective.

So long as this site remains public, we will never completely stem this trend.  Nor do I think any of us actually believe we will.  However, we are equally as unlikely to reduce it to a level that fails to irritate some of us.  That is a function of our military bearing (for those with military experience).  We generally do not suffer fools gladly.  But I reiterate – it is a public site.  If we want to make it private, make it pay only.  I guarantee you that will sort out the vast majority of our issues.  We can hope that people who come here will have a certain set of values and maturity level – but we cannot “expect” it.  For goodness sake – it is the INTERNET.

People fear power - understandably so.  I don’t see much discord or angst when a regular member of this forum dog piles someone.  In fact, usually a Mod steps in, exercises the appropriate power and shuts it down.  I think the issue is when Mods dog pile.  By that I mean, when a Mod is posting in a non-moderator capacity.  It can be difficult for observers to separate the function, even when it is explicitly stated either in the post or in the tagline below it. Postings by Mods – even in non-mod capacities – carry a certain set of expectations.  No way around it.  Maybe their post wasn’t even an honest-to-goodness dog pile post, but owing to a lack of non-verbal and verbal cues, it potentially sets off the others and perhaps gives de-facto and implied permission.  The Mods have tremendous power – ultimately, the power to ban someone from this site.  That power, seemingly unchecked, causes people to get defensive, perhaps irrationally so, but that is, in my opinion, the result.

What we lack are the verbal and non-verbal cues that are critical to effective communication.  I don’t think technology currently exists to overcome that.  So, we the membership must adapt to that reality.  Seeing someone’s age, facial expression and hearing their tone of voice when they ask me “We have a Navy???” will determine the nature of my response.  A 10 year old will get a different response than the university student, who will get a different response than the new immigrant to Canada.  I have friends in civilian occupations – doctors, scientists, etc – that are the recipients of what must certainly sound like dumb questions from me.  They fill fascinating occupations that I couldn’t even begin to understand without the years of education and experience they possess.  The military is sometimes viewed the same way.  Perhaps even more so because we have the coolest toys, things that little boys dream about – tanks and ships and fighter jets and the like – things that most civilians only see in pictures.  It is incumbent on us to realize this and deal with it.

The lack of non-verbal and verbal cues is also an issue when someone writes “use the search function” or some variation.  Even adding the words “have you tried to” can come across as sarcastic and unhelpful.  I can say that phrase half a dozen different ways – in sarcastic, helpful, caustic, indifferent, inquisitive or exhausted tones.  Emoticons can help here, but are not always used in the manner they were originally intended – to add context.  Often they are used to reiterate a tone that was already clear in the statement that preceded them.  Internet communication requires effort on both the sender and the recipient.  Effort by the sender to phrase things properly, so as to remove as much ambiguity as possible and effort by the recipient to realize that their first impression of the response might not be the right one.  But effort requires just that – effort, and is measured in time and action, and not all of us, myself included, have the time or inclination to provide that effort every time we log on.  This is, in my view, a role for mentors as I explain below.

The “We are Family” thread has obvious and excellent advice to new members:

• We can’t discuss that here, it is an Operational Security (OPSEC) issue
• Your question is poorly worded, but I think you mean [this], and therefore your answer is [this]
• Please don’t use MSN speak, it reflects poorly on the professional communications skills we prefer and encourage at Army.ca.  For now, the information you are looking for can be found [here].
• Your answer can be found in [this] FAQ [here]
• Your question has been asked before; you should start your reading with [this thread].
• You can find answers to these questions using the [search page], try a search using [these terms]
• The best person on the forums to answer your particular question is [this person], try contacting him by PM or wait a few days for him to find the thread
• Sorry, but you can’t just join as a [sniper / JTF 2 / etc.], please start with the [Recruiting FAQ] and with [searches] on these terms ...

But wow – 7 of the 8 tips require “effort” on the part of us to direct the member to the correct info.  The real and accepted limitations on our time have been raised throughout this thread.

Another issue I see is an inability to simply ignore something.  Mods and mentors – and anyone else with correct info to add – should step in when incorrect or inaccurate info is posted.  But I don’t think most of the dog piles are a result of that.  They appear to be the result of stupid things being posted or being posted stupidly.  I think most of these things – like the helicopter thread - are ultimately harmless in the big picture.  Annoying, certainly.  But harmful to our goals here? I am not so sure.  If bandwidth is an issue, then delete the photos or the whole thread, send the guy a PM and briefly explain that.  If there is a danger of someone taking away bad info, lock the thread.  But if it just some user talking out of his a$$, well, it is a public forum – what did we expect?  We don’t have Mods who are paid to be here and might thus be expected to spend 8 hours a day “working” on the site.  And if we are too busy to police the thread, then we have to let some things be, some of the time.

I think a solution - I use that term loosely – is for the Mentors to step in.  Again, none of the issues raised in this thread appear to have much, if anything to do with gross and egregious violations of the site guidelines.  They are related to expected and desired protocols for this site.  Some of those protocols are part of the guidelines, but violating them does not, in my opinion, pose a grave danger to the success of this site.  As a mentor I have had a roughly 50% success rate in PMing some of our more notable members of late.  The tone of their PMs is amazingly different than of the public post which caused some sort of issue.  Not perfect tones, but different, in a good way.  Well, 50% is better than 0%.  I admit, I have been remiss in my mentor responsibilities of late – blame it on Staff College and pre-deployment preps.  But I reiterate that I think these issues are a perfect example of the Mentor function and what it was designed to accomplish.

Routine Orders for the past 4 months indicate an increase in new users of approximately 400 per month – sustained.  We receive around 100 000 unique visitors per month and sustain about 2000 active users each month. I don’t know how that membership stacks up against other comparable websites, regardless of whether they deal with military issues or not.  I do think they are statistics that represent a successful website on the whole.  In addition, I think – and I have no data to back this up – but it appears to me that our website has a very active and involved membership.  Perhaps more than most?  I dunno. What I am getting at it is that people feel a sense of attachment here that they may not feel to the other forums they are involved in. Which is perhaps why the issues that are raised in threads like this are such sensitive topics – because we care.

So, I think this website is and will continue to be a resounding success on the whole.  We continue to grow and we clearly remain relevant.  We can always do better, but to do so requires a constant effort that we simply cannot sustain all the time, which we realize and accept.  We appear to have reluctance to accept that, regardless of how often or prominently we post the terms of use, there will always be transgressions.  Simple Command thought process:  is this a problem?  If yes, is it my problem?  If not, then whose?  Let that person resolve it, be it a Mod or Mentor or SME.  We might do better to take a breath and ask ourselves if this is something that requires me to post a reply.  If it does, what is the most effective way to resolve the issue that concerns me?  Is my post really going to resolve the issue or am I posting simply to hear myself speak, and perhaps try to be funny?  Is my post going to encourage poor behaviour on the part of the rest of the membership – either because of my status or seniority or posting history?

Again, my two cents.  If you read this far, thanks for listening.

MARS

Edited for grammar and clarity
 
......very well thought out MARS, I agree with your thoughts.  +1
 
Journeyman said:
Maybe as an additional reward for having MilPoints deducted, the member's next 5 posts cause a Guideline window to pop-up, which must be acknowledged to continue.


As a variation, a series of pop-ups ---

"Are you sure this says what you mean?" Clicking 'Yes' leads to,

"Did you spell check?" Clicking 'Yes' leads to,

"Is this likely to get you flamed in response?" Clicking 'Yes' leads to,

"So you're sure you don't mind if people think you're a dumbass?" Clicking 'Yes' leads to,

"OK, I tried to help you.....  :brickwall: "  and then the message posts  ;D

Thats actually not a bad idea - I think Windows Vista does the same thing, but on a permanenet basis...

 
Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager.

Thanks;Matt
 
matt101pwn said:
Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager.

Thanks;Matt

Have you ever stepped on my lawn?  :eek:rly:
 
matt101pwn said:
Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager.

Thanks;Matt

You dont smoke, drink or do drugs....good for you.
However :

matt101pwn said:
Personally I beleive you should wait till grade 12, get involved in the Military Co-op at your school, if you like the Military lifestyle, Co-op will put you in the Primary reserves, which you can then go to college, which the  military can pay for, and continue the reserves. Once you've done college, depending on your doploma/certificate you could become an officer, meaning more pay, more respect. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Matt

Another example of why dogpiles happen !
 
matt101pwn said:
Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager.

Thanks;Matt

Frankly, I don't really see there being any correlation between either refraining from or engaging in those activities you mentioned, and level of maturity. For the most part, it's your interactions with others that determine whether or not someone is "acting mature".

To steal wikipedia's definition:

Maturity is a psychological term used to indicate that a person responds to the circumstances or environment in an appropriate and adaptive manner. This response is generally learned rather than instinctual, and is not determined by one's age. Maturity also encompasses being aware of the correct time and place to behave and knowing when to act with appropriate emotion for the situation.

So, to the extent that someone can indulge to a level that it does not adversely affect their interactions with others, use of tobacco, alcohol, and some drugs is not in and of itself "inappropriate", depending upon the time and place when one chooses to do so, and in my not so humble opinion, does not indicate a necessary lack of maturity.

And before someone brings it up, yes I do believe that the use of illegal drugs as a member of the CF does certainly fail the "being aware of the correct time and place to behave and knowing when to act" portion of that definition. I don't think the same could always be said for all civilians.

To wit, in my humble opinion, the person who shows up drunk at his grandmother's funeral is acting much less mature, in my not so humble opinion, than the university student who smokes pot once a month on the weekend.
 
Being mature is vastly overrated *

However, thinking before you type, and taking responsibility for your actions (including getting dog-piled) is not.


* I guess; it's not really my strong suit.
 
matt101pwn.......after reading what CDN just posted( your quote on college/officer/respect/etc).......holy crap!!.  Dude, take the hint.  Stay in your lane and for gods sakes stop offering advice,when you clearly have no right to be giving it.  Just stop it.
  I'd love to see you approach Sgt or higher in any trade and ask them why they don't go to university, so that one day they might get more respect!
 
Quote from: matt101pwn on Today at 08:01:48
Personally I beleive you should wait till grade 12, get involved in the Military Co-op at your school, if you like the Military lifestyle, Co-op will put you in the Primary reserves, which you can then go to college, which the  military can pay for, and continue the reserves. Once you've done college, depending on your doploma/certificate you could become an officer, meaning more pay, more respect. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

You are wrong.

The CF will not pay for your education as a reservist. Becoming an Officer is no guarantee of respect. Not becoming an Officer is no guarantee of lesser respect.

Feel free to post about your relevant experiences or ask questions (once exhausting the Search Function of course) but please DO NOT attempt to give advice about things outside of your knowledge again.

You have been gently cautioned several times now, but seem to have some difficulty taking hints.

We appreciate your enthusiasm and understand your youth, and you seem like a good kid so we are willing to cut you a little slack, BUT patience will run out eventually. Please do not push it.

What you are doing, to give you an illustration, is like walking into the teachers' lounge in your school and offering your principal and teachers advice about how to teach. How do you think that they would react to that?

Know when to post, and, more importantly, when NOT to post.

Consider this your final unofficial warning.
 
matt101pwn said:
Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager.

Thanks;Matt

Sorry matt but as someone that has done all three I will judge you on your posts rather than the fact that you have never done any.  Just because someone has not done any does not mean they are mature. Many didn't simply because they were afraid of getting caught by their parents.  Then again many lie about their drug usage when they are at the recruiting centre.

For the dog piling - I try to leave that to others (note I did say try) as much as possible although sometimes it is hard to resist. I can assure you there has been numerous times I have started a response and then closed out rather than posting so I can just imagine how annoying it gets for those that have been around for a long time to read some of the questions.  I think we need to face the fact that it is something that is going to happen, do our best not to get involved, report them to the mods when we see them and hope the mods will get around to locking them quick.

Finally  - thanks to all for running this site and putting up with the rest of us.
 
I'm willing to take correction for my previous actions, but on a post about dog-piling you guys are doing a great job at proving the main point. I will think before I post, and do my best to try to offer no advice like everyone wants.
 
and do my best to try to offer no advice like everyone wants.
[/quote]

Pout if you want, however if someone came on here and asked about present school curriculum, then I would bow to your BTDT knowledge.

Just offer what you know.................

 
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