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Officers and Swagger Sticks

IntlBr

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Good Day All,

A few of us were talking in the Officer's Mess the other day, and got onto the subject of swagger sticks.  I did a search here but was unable to turn up anything of substance, as everything seems to focus on Drill Canes and Pace Sticks.  Why did swagger sticks fall out of use?  I can't even find a reference to them in the Dress Instructions, which for a once standard and very widely used item I feel is a little odd. 

After speaking with the Adj, he said he'd be all for "bringing it back" - but I wanted to vet it amongst the users here to see what the consensus was.  I have a feeling Michael O'Leary (amongst others) might be able to sort me out with regards to use, and the discontinuation thereof, but lets hear it!

Cheers!
 
Quite simply, the use of swagger sticks, drill canes, etc., fell out of use as common military accoutrements because they (i.e., their equivalents such as riding crops carried by 'gentlemen') fell out of fashion in general society.  Pace sticks remained because they still had a military purpose that saw use on the parade ground.

While we generally perceive swagger sticks as an officers' accoutrements, they were actually carried by all ranks at times in walking out dress.

 
As we departed from our 18th Century philosophies of "Officership" in the 1980's, we dispensed with the frivolous expenditures spent on appearances and dispensed with them, along with such finery as "Dickies" or scarves.  ;D
 
George Wallace said:
As we departed from our 18th Century philosophies of "Officership" in the 1980's, we dispensed with the frivolous expenditures spent on appearances and dispensed with them, along with such finery as "Dickies" or scarves.  ;D

Yup, too bad the smilie-annotated opionions of officers haven't also progressed.


 
Thanks for the info Mike, I knew that ORs carried the swagger sticks as well, but your info about falling out of use in society was definitely new, and makes perfect sense.

I'm still thinking about bringing it back, since our British counterparts are doing it, I don't see why we aren't.

Cheers!
 
I get that the military is big on history and traditions, but nothing would demonstrate more succinctly that the military's priorities are out of step with the modern world than this if it were to go through.
 
KingKikapu said:
I get that the military is big on history and traditions, but nothing would demonstrate more succinctly that the military's priorities are out of step with the modern world than this if it were to go through.

I suspect that even if a regiment asked for such a thing and it wasn't shot down, it would only be approved for acquisition through individual private purchase.  If that was the case, it wouldn't affect the "military's priorities" at all, quite unlike the process that brought us the short-lived DEU tans and garrison dress with all of their attendant improvements to operational efficiency for the cost and effort to acquire and issue.
 
My priorities right now are on learning to be an effective officer, and part of this involves thinking about elements of being an officer - dress and deportment being quite a large part of it for a new officer.  If you don't like it, thats fine, but arguing that the "military's priorities are out of order" is tripe.  Its okay to ask questions, thats why we have this site.

Cheers.
 
I didn't say the military's priorities are out of whack.  I think they're just fine for the moment.  I said if something like this went through, then I'd certainly be concerned.  I guess my real concern with it is what does it intend to accomplish?
 
A nod to our traditions, and heritage.

What objectives would carrying a swagger stick subvert?  You certainly seem to think its a bad idea - justify that.
 
Corps of Guides said:
A nod to our traditions, and heritage.
How far back do you want to go in that nodding exercise?

Corps of Guides said:
What objectives would carrying a swagger stick subvert?
What purpose would they serve?

I can hardly see anybody being too eager to have a fancy but useless stick to lug around for no good reason. They might employ them during the hunt for whoever came up with the idea though...

Corps of Guides said:
You certainly seem to think its a bad idea - justify that.
Justify the expense - either to the Crown or to the individual who would have to purchase one were they not issued.

And where does this stop? Sam Browne belts? Spurs?
 
When we saw the disappearance of the Swagger Stick and Riding Crop, along with Regimental Scarves and Dickies, we also saw the disappearance of Stable Belts, and whole Orders of Dress.  Kit Shops were kept alive with the necessity for Regimental members to buy Regimental Accoutrement's.  Today's soldiers don't see the need for several Orders of Dress, and especially don't wish to have to maintain them; a sign of the recent generations.  I am sure many will look on the return of any of this, other than for Ceremonial, as being too much, frivolous and seriously place the Officer Corps in a poor light as they will appear to be living in a fantasy world of 18th Century Britain and the Caste System of the day.  Society has evolved from those times.  Today's more educated soldiers recognize that.
 
Think of it in a cultural context - the things fell from use within the military culture.  If you started carrying one around, your troops would either wonder why you were trying to look like an NCO or figure you were a retard for carrying a stick around.  Trend setting doesn't usually come around from a subaltern saying "I'm thinking of bringing this back" - institutional culture is a strong thing.
 
George Wallace said:
As we departed from our 18th Century philosophies of "Officership" in the 1980's,

What, in particular happened in the '80s surrounding officership?
 
N. McKay said:
What, in particular happened in the '80s surrounding officership?

IMO the changing of an Officer from a leader to a manager.
 
Cant wait to see the traditional battle days being taken away, due to the prohibition that has infected the military.  Why do we bother recognizing Paarderberg day, frig, that is over a hundred years ago..Pacino day?  pfft, bad sgetti and wine that gives me a hang over for a month...Loose 'em!


Or that goofy game that the boys play out west, zoomafloom, or whatever it is called, as it may hurt someone.

In fact, why not get rid of regimental colours?  When was the last time we rallied to them in combat? Did we do it in the Sandbox?  I mean, were they actually flown while the bullets were blazing?

Yep, let's get rid of it all, as it makes no practical sense in our super refined Batttlestar gallactica military.  We know better now.

::)

dileas

tess


 
well... speaking from personal experience WRT the RSMs canes & pacesticks....
THere was a time where you would see RSMs traveling all over the country.... with their canes & such regimental finery as was practical (and impractical) to carry.  There were some elaborate cases to ship those canes from point A to point B.

New rules were imposed & the RSMs regimental cane is pert much restricted to use within a unit's lines.... ONLY!

Sooo... if a unit ever decided to bring back riding crops or swagger sticks.... it would be restricted to unit lines.

And if ever a cane or stick was ever used by accident or intent against a member of the troops.... there would be hell to pay.
 
geo said:
New rules were imposed & the RSMs regimental cane is pert much restricted to use within a unit's lines.... ONLY!

Sooo... if a unit ever decided to bring back riding crops or swagger sticks.... it would be restricted to unit lines.

Which is exactly the rules in place when the officers of 2RCR carried ashplant walking sticks in the mid-1980s. (I still have mine.)

geo said:
And if ever a cane or stick was ever used by accident or intent against a member of the troops.... there would be hell to pay.

No different than the expected responsibility in place with pace sticks.
 
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