Officer at 16/17?

[TangoTwoBravo]

Leadership training is overrated.

Learning to work hard and listen to direction is underrated, and in my opinion, probably more valuable to a leader.

What are you basing this on? Have you compleated any CF leadership training?

Our leadership training combines theory and practice. The prospective leader needs to bring the required attributes, but the training is very valuable. As an aside, leadership training includes plenty of hard work and listening to direction.

For the OP, either stick in Cadets till you apply for ROTP or join the reserves as an NCM.

Cheers

 

[Jarnhamar]

Leadership training is overrated.

Learning to work hard and listen to direction is underrated, and in my opinion, probably more valuable to a leader.

Learning to work hard and listening to direction IS leadership training.

 

[Maxadia]

Having spent time in the ranks, does not, by itself, make a better officer.

It also, by itself, does not prevent one from becoming a better officer.

 

[Vyscaria]

I want to talk to you about this officer/NCM thing. I'm getting this idea that you see officer as the only path to go down, and I want to tell you something.

When I was fifteen, I also wanted to become an officer. You can probably even trace my posts back to that time less than a year ago when I was badgering the board about my hopes and dreams. "I want to be an infantry officer!" I was saying.

I wanted desperately to be an officer. I thought that was the only way to get some sort of respect, and everyone wants to be respected. I honestly think that as a fifteen-year-old, I just wanted to be saluted. Now I am sixteen, and my entire paradigm has shifted.
I've completed reserve NCM BMQ and am about to go on BMQ-L, and wanting to be an officer has completely fled from my mind. I look back to those times with a sense of amused astonishment; I actually prefer the NCM path now. I don't think I was ready to be an officer- not even now. People have suggested it to me on many occasions, my course officer badgered me constantly about ROTP. Even though others think I have what it takes, I still think I have too much to learn before I lead. I just don't want to be an officer anymore. Maybe later I'll consider it again. Salutes aren't actually all that- they're a formality. Respect is a completely different matter- you persevere and you give the CF and your fellow soldiers all you've got, and you will be respected and acknowledged for what you do.

So really think about the NCM alternative. You never know until you try.

I have also heard about the difficulties of making the switch once in the reserves NCM, but you must remember that these things happen on a case-by-case basis. Certainly there have been cases wherein the transfer was relatively hassle free. The Canadian Forces values experience and skill, and both professionally and socially a more skilled soldier is valued higher than a random civilian off the streets applying to become an officer. What others have said about getting some experience before making going officer is completely correct; there is a respect system as well as a rank system in place when it comes to all members of the CF. It's unspoken and unwritten, but it makes a big difference in how others perceive you. Put in a few years as NCM, do some good work, and it will pay off when (and if) you transfer into Officer.

By the way, personally I'm under the impression that time in the reserves looks better than time in the cadets. Anyone can join cadets, but not everyone's got the guts, grit, and passion to truly serve. By the way, even as a reserve Private, there are lots of leadership roles to be had if you look for them. Aside from section seniors/platoon seniors, your leadership skill is constantly put to the test via section attacks, team tasks, etc. You may not have access to leadership courses right away, but we do have leadership roles distributed among ourselves. Sometimes it's better to learn by action than by powerpoint! Your experience as a cadet would also probably help your section if you're humble and willing to give it.

I hope this helps.
Best of luck.

 

[Ambrivian]

I want to talk to you about this officer/NCM thing. I'm getting this idea that you see officer as the only path to go down, and I want to tell you something.

When I was fifteen, I also wanted to become an officer. You can probably even trace my posts back to that time less than a year ago when I was badgering the board about my hopes and dreams. "I want to be an infantry officer!" I was saying.

I wanted desperately to be an officer. I thought that was the only way to get some sort of respect, and everyone wants to be respected. I honestly think that as a fifteen-year-old, I just wanted to be saluted. Now I am sixteen, and my entire paradigm has shifted.
I've completed reserve NCM BMQ and am about to go on BMQ-L, and wanting to be an officer has completely fled from my mind. I look back to those times with a sense of amused astonishment; I actually prefer the NCM path now. I don't think I was ready to be an officer- not even now. People have suggested it to me on many occasions, my course officer badgered me constantly about ROTP. Even though others think I have what it takes, I still think I have too much to learn before I lead. I just don't want to be an officer anymore. Maybe later I'll consider it again. Salutes aren't actually all that- they're a formality. Respect is a completely different matter- you persevere and you give the CF and your fellow soldiers all you've got, and you will be respected and acknowledged for what you do.

So really think about the NCM alternative. You never know until you try.

I have also heard about the difficulties of making the switch once in the reserves NCM, but you must remember that these things happen on a case-by-case basis. Certainly there have been cases wherein the transfer was relatively hassle free. The Canadian Forces values experience and skill, and both professionally and socially a more skilled soldier is valued higher than a random civilian off the streets applying to become an officer. What others have said about getting some experience before making going officer is completely correct; there is a respect system as well as a rank system in place when it comes to all members of the CF. It's unspoken and unwritten, but it makes a big difference in how others perceive you. Put in a few years as NCM, do some good work, and it will pay off when (and if) you transfer into Officer.

By the way, personally I'm under the impression that time in the reserves looks better than time in the cadets. Anyone can join cadets, but not everyone's got the guts, grit, and passion to truly serve. By the way, even as a reserve Private, there are lots of leadership roles to be had if you look for them. Aside from section seniors/platoon seniors, your leadership skill is constantly put to the test via section attacks, team tasks, etc. You may not have access to leadership courses right away, but we do have leadership roles distributed among ourselves. Sometimes it's better to learn by action than by powerpoint! Your experience as a cadet would also probably help your section if you're humble and willing to give it.

I hope this helps.
Best of luck.

I'm well aware that there is always the NCM path, but I come from a military family, and some would say it's in my blood. Every person on my dad's side of the family has been an NCM, but they see in me the ability to be the first officer of the family besides my father. I'm talking uncles, aunts, grandparents and cousins that have served in every element and in over eight different trades. The military was just something I grew up with, especially when we were posted to England. I have high aspirations and that's why I came on this forum, to get the hard facts.

Okay, really?  :-\  I was a Cadet too (A Sergeant even), yeah. Now I'm an Ordinary Seaman (A Private) in the Regular Force.  The experience is completely different.  Trust me, you learn a hell of a lot more in the Canadian Forces as a Private than you ever would in Cadets... To say otherwise is completely ridiculous... Especially considering you have never served.

I think you have a lot of growing up to do before you join the Military.... Especially as an Officer...

You must not have been a good cadet then, or in a good corps. The two experiences are different, for sure, but I'm looking more at the leadership training I get in cadets rather than the military training I would get in the CF Reserves. I've never served because I'm fifteen.

Of course I have a lot to learn, I'm fifteen, that's why I'm here.

 

[PuckChaser]

To be a good leader, you need to learn to be a good follower. You can't just skip the queue and think your "leadership" training in cadets is going to translate well into the CF. Cadets makes you a good citizen, the reserves will make you a soldier.

 

[Ambrivian]

To be a good leader, you need to learn to be a good follower. You can't just skip the queue and think your "leadership" training in cadets is going to translate well into the CF. Cadets makes you a good citizen, the reserves will make you a soldier.

I've been a follower in cadets for the past four years. I know this is nothing compared to how long many soldiers are followers in the reserves or regular force, but it's a start.

 

[Scott]

Stop.

I'm well aware that there is always the NCM path, but I come from a military family, and some would say it's in my blood. Every person on my dad's side of the family has been an NCM, but they see in me the ability to be the first officer of the family besides my father. I'm talking uncles, aunts, grandparents and cousins that have served in every element and in over eight different trades. The military was just something I grew up with, especially when we were posted to England. I have high aspirations and that's why I came on this forum, to get the hard facts.

You came here ''to get the cold hard facts'' yet you've dismissed much of what the guys with the TI have told you.

You're also pretty weak at picking up sarcasm offered earlier about things to mention in your interview. That was help offered in an alternative form and it flew over your head because you're too busy telling the kind folks here that they're wrong, that you are born to do this, yadda yadda. If I had a buck for every time someone has said this the last 8 years, from the outside looking in, mind you, well, I'd have a few bucks.

You must not have been a good cadet then, or in a good corps. The two experiences are different, for sure, but I'm looking more at the leadership training I get in cadets rather than the military training I would get in the CF Reserves. I've never served because I'm fifteen.

That's a pretty shitty attitude to come off with. How would you really know? Guess you missed that Stacked is already a part of the organization you wish to join. I mean if you're just going to remain convinced with what Daddy told you then why bother registering and asking the minions here?

Spare me the, ''I'll be the biggest, bestest, baddest ass occifer you have ever seen and you will one day regret speaking to me like this because I am a future CDS'' *yawn* and just rpove you have the ability to read, comprehend, and take on board what those WITH EXPERIENCE have been telling you. Great that you have aspirations, just don't be a dink about it, hmmkay?

Of course I have a lot to learn, I'm fifteen, that's why I'm here.

Talk is cheap.

Scott
Staff

 

[JorgSlice]

YOU WILL LEARN ALOT MORE ABOUT LEADERSHIP AS A PRIVATE IN THE CF THAN AS A CADET AT ANY RANK.

This.

I'm well aware that there is always the NCM path, but I come from a military family, and some would say it's in my blood. Every person on my dad's side of the family has been an NCM, but they see in me the ability to be the first officer of the family besides my father. I'm talking uncles, aunts, grandparents and cousins that have served in every element and in over eight different trades. The military was just something I grew up with, especially when we were posted to England. I have high aspirations and that's why I came on this forum, to get the hard facts.

You must not have been a good cadet then, or in a good corps. The two experiences are different, for sure, but I'm looking more at the leadership training I get in cadets rather than the military training I would get in the CF Reserves. I've never served because I'm fifteen.

Of course I have a lot to learn, I'm fifteen, that's why I'm here.

While I have yet to touch the CF in either PRes or RegF... I did my full 6 years as a cadet, was taught leadership by CIC officers and other senior cadets... then when it was my turn at the top as Cadet-RSM, the most VALUABLE and AMAZING bits of leadership wisdom that I gained came from RegF or PRes NCMs - mainly Privates and Corporals but there was also the Base RSM and the QMSI(DSM) who were both long-time reservists that were just stellar mentors.

Broaden your horizons and don't be so full of yourself. My dad served 20 years and my grandfather was a POW captured at Dieppe... doesn't mean squat about how or even if, I will turn out and please, PLEASE!!! Do not get in your head that just because you are/were a cadet that you know so much more and are better than everyone else and do NOT hold the training as gospel. While some is useful if you're just going to stick around in the civilian world, it does very very little in the military world - all it gives is an advantage in drill, chain of command, uniform care.

 

[Maxadia]

You can take this with a grain of salt, especially since I was only in for a quick summer many eons ago.  The former cadets on my course, GOOD cadets, mind you, had trouble adapting to things because they were still stuck in cadets.  The main reason they weren't top of their course was that they EXPECTED to be top due to their previous experience.

You can stay in cadets until you age out if you wish, but it's not going to turn you into the best officer.  And I'd be surprised if your father read this thread and agreed with you.

 

[Scott]

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular:

The OP and I have been PMing. I am not going to speak for him but will offer that he did not intend to come off like this and he just might be sorry.

Give peace a chance and allow a fella to step on his dick at least one time.

Scott
Staff

 

[chevalnoir]

I think it's nice to see a 15 year old who is articulate, literate and has a game plan for his life.

If he does end up joining the CF, I'm sure the NCO's in charge of his training will sort out the rest  >

 

[Jarnhamar]

IMO, adults have came to this sight and having received far less criticism, flew off the handle and have been big cry babies about it.

15 year olds are allowed to be immature.  15 year olds with big dreams about becoming officers are allowed to be immature.

I'd rather see a kid bragging about cadet service and talking about joining the forces instead of the ton of other crap they could be out doing.



Amb, you're on the right path but you need to accept that the leadership training you've learned in the cadets simply isn't going to carry you that far in the military.  You can accept this now or you can wait until you go through your officer training.  I'm sure you'll make a great officer and do your family proud- step 1 is listening to what others with more experience say even if you think you're right.
Good job on keeping your cool and not being a cry baby.

 

[bcbarman]

Amb, I'll offer up a bit of free advice, and like everyone else, take it as what it is, advice.  (and you get what you pay for)

Officer training is HARD!! The failure rate on most courses is pretty high compared to the NCM courses.  If you take your BMOQ right out of cadets, you will be learning everything from zero.  I don't know how good your cadet unit is, but I never learned how to receive and issue orders in the standard NATO format when I was a Sgt in Cadets.  As well, although I was a dead shot with the .22 rifle our shooting team used, I had very limited exposure to the C-7 and other marksmanship principals. 

Being a Private/ordinary seaman in the reserves gives you exposure to all these things and more, so that when you are on your BMOQ/ trades training, you will already know how to clean your rifle/take orders/etc, all the little things that you do not have to focus on, and can spend that valuable time studying things that you don't know.

All in all, deep exposure to the systems, weapons and tools of the paid military will always help more then the limited exposure that Cadets can offer. Its not that Cadets are bad, its just that Cadets themselves do not fall under the Code of Service discipline, not are subject to the unlimited liability that the members of the Canadian Forces are. 

 

[aesop081]

Its not that Cadets are bad, its just that Cadets themselves do not fall under the Code of Service discipline, not are subject to the unlimited liability that the members of the Canadian Forces are.

Since we quite successfully recruit new officers directly from "the street", with no prior exposure whatsoever, neither cadets or service in the reserves is particularly critical. Being subject to the CSD & UL or not is irrelevant.

 

[Maxadia]

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular:

The OP and I have been PMing. I am not going to speak for him but will offer that he did not intend to come off like this and he just might be sorry.

Give peace a chance and allow a fella to step on his dick at least one time.

Scott
Staff

Point take by all, I'm sure.  :nod:

To the OP...you seem like a decent kid.  Misguided possibly, and that may be self-inflicted or by others.  Neither is a fatal flaw.  The ability to listen and improve is critical.

You show a lo of promise for a 15 year old, and while we might disagree with your choice of game plan, at least you have one.  I see too many students having more of what I have recently seen referred to as a "wishbone" instead of a "backbone".  You have potential to do very well, regardless of whether you choose the officer route or NCM.  Either is a noble choice.

 

[Ambrivian]

You can take this with a grain of salt, especially since I was only in for a quick summer many eons ago.  The former cadets on my course, GOOD cadets, mind you, had trouble adapting to things because they were still stuck in cadets.  The main reason they weren't top of their course was that they EXPECTED to be top due to their previous experience.

You can stay in cadets until you age out if you wish, but it's not going to turn you into the best officer.  And I'd be surprised if your father read this thread and agreed with you.

Yeah, my Dad just loves the program and what it does with today's youth. He can barely remember being in cadets himself, but he can certainly remember being a private at sixteen. The fact that he was CFR may have made him a better officer in the long run.

I think it's nice to see a 15 year old who is articulate, literate and has a game plan for his life.

If he does end up joining the CF, I'm sure the NCO's in charge of his training will sort out the rest  >

You'll have to thank my AP English teacher for that, and years of being addicted to books. Thanks for the compliment though

IMO, adults have came to this sight and having received far less criticism, flew off the handle and have been big cry babies about it.

15 year olds are allowed to be immature.  15 year olds with big dreams about becoming officers are allowed to be immature.

I'd rather see a kid bragging about cadet service and talking about joining the forces instead of the ton of other crap they could be out doing.

Amb, you're on the right path but you need to accept that the leadership training you've learned in the cadets simply isn't going to carry you that far in the military.  You can accept this now or you can wait until you go through your officer training.  I'm sure you'll make a great officer and do your family proud- step 1 is listening to what others with more experience say even if you think you're right.
Good job on keeping your cool and not being a cry baby.

Thanks! It's not that easy to tough it out, but I plan on doing that on in the military as best I can. Being fifteen is great and yet it's also terrible, but I might as well enjoy it.

Amb, I'll offer up a bit of free advice, and like everyone else, take it as what it is, advice.  (and you get what you pay for)

Officer training is HARD!! The failure rate on most courses is pretty high compared to the NCM courses.  If you take your BMOQ right out of cadets, you will be learning everything from zero.  I don't know how good your cadet unit is, but I never learned how to receive and issue orders in the standard NATO format when I was a Sgt in Cadets.  As well, although I was a dead shot with the .22 rifle our shooting team used, I had very limited exposure to the C-7 and other marksmanship principals. 

Being a Private/ordinary seaman in the reserves gives you exposure to all these things and more, so that when you are on your BMOQ/ trades training, you will already know how to clean your rifle/take orders/etc, all the little things that you do not have to focus on, and can spend that valuable time studying things that you don't know.

All in all, deep exposure to the systems, weapons and tools of the paid military will always help more then the limited exposure that Cadets can offer. Its not that Cadets are bad, its just that Cadets themselves do not fall under the Code of Service discipline, not are subject to the unlimited liability that the members of the Canadian Forces are. 

I'm not surprised by the numbers, and I'm sure it'll take a lot of hard work on my part, but I'd love to at least try my best.

Top corps in BC actually . One of my officers was in cadets when they carried rifles and did tactics and wargames in the field, so he's trying to make our experience as great as his was. I learned SMESC from him, and I actually have to plan one of our FTXs next year.

Point take by all, I'm sure.  :nod:

To the OP...you seem like a decent kid.  Misguided possibly, and that may be self-inflicted or by others.  Neither is a fatal flaw.  The ability to listen and improve is critical.

You show a lo of promise for a 15 year old, and while we might disagree with your choice of game plan, at least you have one.  I see too many students having more of what I have recently seen referred to as a "wishbone" instead of a "backbone".  You have potential to do very well, regardless of whether you choose the officer route or NCM.  Either is a noble choice.

We'll see where life takes me within the next few years.

Lastly, I am sorry for earlier. I came on here and didn't expect this kind of feedback. In some ways, it's a blessing because now I know from others' experiences that cadets isn't the be-all, end-all for preparation for the military. The only way to prepare is to experience it and experience life. I might stick around on these forums, maybe give you all some investing tips (I'm a shareholder at fifteen).

Thanks,
Ambrivian

 

[Bluebulldog]

Coming in at the conclusion of this thread...I have a few points to offer.

Leadership is not telling people what to do.....it's about motivating them to do same without telling them.

The best way to lead is by example. To be that type of person, you must always have the attitude that you won't ask someone to do something you wouldn't do yourself. In the CF this can be done by spending some time in the NCM Jr. ranks. Regardless of what is taught in "Leadership Training".

I am an upper level Manager Civvy side. I have served as a NCM, as well as doing my trades apprenticeships on civvy side as well. I draw on my experience as an NCM, and a licensed trade in developing my staff, and leading them every day. To dismiss the experience out of hand is plain wrong.

CDN Aviator makes a good point. There are some that do not do well, regardless of their training, one would hope that they are weeded out, as I'm sure they are before moving up in rank. If you find yourself pointing out to a subordinate that you're in charge....chances are, you aren't.

Amb...you seem to have caught on...be a sponge...absorb everything you can, and don't try to sort it out....that will come in time......you seem to have more on the ball that some do, which may work in your favour if you remain humble enough to realize that there will always be someone else who knows more than you.

Best of luck. Remember don't ask "why" questions.....ask "how" questions........

 

[Pusser]

First of all, I'm sorry if these questions have been answered somewhere else, but I've had a really hard time finding them. Before I contact a recruiting center, I'd like to know if anyone has any further information regarding my situation.

A bit about myself; I'm only fifteen (birthday is in September) and I'm currently a Sergeant in army cadets. I'm starting grade eleven next year, and I'm looking into getting out of cadets and joining the reserves as an officer (calm down, read the rest first ).

One of my friends in cadets who is sixteen - and turning seventeen months before I am - said he was considering quitting so that he could join the reserves as an officer, and then work as one until he was done university. He said he would start his training at seventeen or sixteen and work as an officer (probably as an officer cadet) until he graduated. He doesn't want to do a ROTP, because he doesn't see the military as a career for him. IS this scenario even possible? I've come to the conclusion that you have to be at least earning a degree to be an officer, even an uncommissioned one as an officer cadet.

If it is possible, my idea is to start at sixteen or seventeen as an officer cadet in the reserves and complete all my basic officer courses, and then enroll in a ROTP once I'm done high-school. The benefit I see in this is that I'll be "getting my feet wet" as well as having an exciting part-time job and finishing my basic courses years before I need to. This sounds like a great plan, but I don't know if it's possible. (If I need to though, I would do the scenario my friend planned on and then just do a transfer.)

So, any ideas, comment, questions or concerns?

Thanks!

Although my experience is a bit dated (almost 30 years old), I think much of it is still relavent:

1)  30 years ago at this time, I was a Staff Cadet at a summer camp and loved it.  It was a fantastic experience that I would not have traded for the world.  If that's a possibility for you then I recommend staying with cadets.

2)  I joined the Naval Reserve as an NCM (while still in high school), immediately following my last summer at cadet camp.  I enjoyed this as well and again would not have traded it for the world.  My reasons for joining the Naval Reserve had nothing to do with getting a leg up on my application for ROTP (which had always been my intent), but rather with my dissatisfaction with my particular cadet corps.  Nevertheless, I sometimes regret having left cadets too soon (I could likely have done at least another summer as a Staff Cadet).

3)  Unless things have changed drastically, I do not believe you can enroll in any officer training program (regular or reserve) without having a high school diploma (college-prep).  So joining as an officer cadet, while still in high school is not even a possibility.

4)  Going into ROTP from the Reserve is not a standard component transfer.  ROTP applications are dealt with separately and being in the Reserve will not affect your ROTP application one iota, other than to give you experience points and a salary boost upon transfer.  In other words, if you apply for ROTP in your final year of high school and you make the cut, you will be enrolled in time to go to BMOQ the summer that you graduate.

5)  The Reserve and Cadets are different animals and comparing them is difficult.  You have to do what is right for you.  Both will give you extra points in ROTP application process.  There have been many successful ROTP applicants who have had one, the other, both or neither.

 

[Ambrivian]

Coming in at the conclusion of this thread...I have a few points to offer.

Leadership is not telling people what to do.....it's about motivating them to do same without telling them.

The best way to lead is by example. To be that type of person, you must always have the attitude that you won't ask someone to do something you wouldn't do yourself. In the CF this can be done by spending some time in the NCM Jr. ranks. Regardless of what is taught in "Leadership Training".

I am an upper level Manager Civvy side. I have served as a NCM, as well as doing my trades apprenticeships on civvy side as well. I draw on my experience as an NCM, and a licensed trade in developing my staff, and leading them every day. To dismiss the experience out of hand is plain wrong.

CDN Aviator makes a good point. There are some that do not do well, regardless of their training, one would hope that they are weeded out, as I'm sure they are before moving up in rank. If you find yourself pointing out to a subordinate that you're in charge....chances are, you aren't.

Amb...you seem to have caught on...be a sponge...absorb everything you can, and don't try to sort it out....that will come in time......you seem to have more on the ball that some do, which may work in your favour if you remain humble enough to realize that there will always be someone else who knows more than you.

Best of luck. Remember don't ask "why" questions.....ask "how" questions........

Acer Acerpori translates to "As the Maple, so the Sapling" which means lead by example. This is one thing that I've definitely experienced in cadets. Every cadet event, I do something myself the first time, and then I get them to do it. I've been told I have a hands-on coaching style of leadership.

Although my experience is a bit dated (almost 30 years old), I think much of it is still relavent:

1)  30 years ago at this time, I was a Staff Cadet at a summer camp and loved it.  It was a fantastic experience that I would not have traded for the world.  If that's a possibility for you then I recommend staying with cadets.

2)  I joined the Naval Reserve as an NCM (while still in high school), immediately following my last summer at cadet camp.  I enjoyed this as well and again would not have traded it for the world.  My reasons for joining the Naval Reserve had nothing to do with getting a leg up on my application for ROTP (which had always been my intent), but rather with my dissatisfaction with my particular cadet corps.  Nevertheless, I sometimes regret having left cadets too soon (I could likely have done at least another summer as a Staff Cadet).

3)  Unless things have changed drastically, I do not believe you can enroll in any officer training program (regular or reserve) without having a high school diploma (college-prep).  So joining as an officer cadet, while still in high school is not even a possibility.

4)  Going into ROTP from the Reserve is not a standard component transfer.  ROTP applications are dealt with separately and being in the Reserve will not affect your ROTP application one iota, other than to give you experience points and a salary boost upon transfer.  In other words, if you apply for ROTP in your final year of high school and you make the cut, you will be enrolled in time to go to BMOQ the summer that you graduate.

5)  The Reserve and Cadets are different animals and comparing them is difficult.  You have to do what is right for you.  Both will give you extra points in ROTP application process.  There have been many successful ROTP applicants who have had one, the other, both or neither.

When I first made this thread, this was the type of answer I was expecting, thank you.