• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Non-Commissioned Pilots in the RCAF Discussion

Eye In The Sky

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
2,002
Points
1,060
There's likely some variation on this between fleets, even Sqns. I was in an MMO position until graduating MOAT; makes sense as I didn't have the qual to hold a line NASO position.

I'm not sure what the CAF or RCAF official policy is on the subj, but I'm sure whatever it is...it isn't being followed 100%.
 

Good2Golf

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
8,365
Points
1,360
Tac Hel appears the same as MH. New wings grads are posted to a unit line ID position in the squadron’s establishment.
 

Zoomie

Army.ca Veteran
Mentor
Reaction score
177
Points
680
If your unit has an open line number - the CM will post them in to it. If you are a Pri A unit that needs its line numbers full of OFP aircrew - DMilC will use the MMO/BTL tool for all non-OFP pers.

This is a national (read DMilC) policy - same goes for non-OFP Captains not receiving PERs.
 

dapaterson

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
7,158
Points
1,090
Other than remusters, the phrase "non-OFP Captain" should not exist.
 

SupersonicMax

Army.ca Veteran
Mentor
Reaction score
1,309
Points
1,110
Other than remusters, the phrase "non-OFP Captain" should not exist.

I am not sure how you could do this, without heavily penalizing people awaiting their OTU (some of my friends waited 3 years!)

In order to be promoted to Lt/Capt, an officer needs DP1 completed (basic training, environmental qualification and basic occupational qualification).

In the pilot's case, basic occupational qualification is the reception of Wings. Given pilot training is lengthy, this often equates to a promotion to Captain after receiving wings. If you want to move that stake to OTU completion, That's an additional 2-3 years as a 2Lt rather than a Captain, a reduction of $84K in compensation. If the system was streamlined and fast, I could agree to this. In its current state, not a chance I would penalize people because of the system's ineptitude at planning.
 

dapaterson

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
7,158
Points
1,090
Given the size of the BTL backlog drives this in part, should the RCAF reduce pilot recruiting until the backlog is largely eliminated?
 

dimsum

Army.ca Legend
Mentor
Reaction score
4,089
Points
1,260
Other than remusters, the phrase "non-OFP Captain" should not exist.
That's not limited to Pilots. ACSOs have at least a year (usually more like 18-24 months) wait until OTU after wings. OTU itself can be something like 8-10 months, dependent on aircraft type.

Most folks in the OTU are Capts, or get promoted to Capt by the end of the course. I can think of maybe 1-2 people who were post-OTU Lts when I was on squadron.
 

Zoomie

Army.ca Veteran
Mentor
Reaction score
177
Points
680
If we reduce the SIP for pilots/acsos this year, will DMCG increase the SIP dramatically when the backlog is gone and we need to feed the schools? Most probably they will just give the SIP to other trades and then conveniently forget about that when we ask for what we didn't spend - almost exactly like spending your L101 every year...
 

Zoomie

Army.ca Veteran
Mentor
Reaction score
177
Points
680
OFP definition for Pilots/ACSO/FE/AESOP is completion of their first aircraft certification post Wings. I have a Captain Pilot that I've already deployed to Kuwait and is awaiting the conversion training for CC-2995 (late 2022) - he won't be OFP until after he graduates that course. This definition was made in order to stop non-OFP aircrew from collecting aircrew allowance - side effect being that they aren't OFP and hence won't receive an annual PER (even if they deploy).
 

dimsum

Army.ca Legend
Mentor
Reaction score
4,089
Points
1,260
side effect being that they aren't OFP and hence won't receive an annual PER (even if they deploy).
Is that new? I recalled getting Annual and Theatre PERs pre-OTU.

So does that mean the Theatre PER means nothing for that member because they are pre-OTU? That's not right.
 

dapaterson

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
7,158
Points
1,090
DGMC doesn't assign SIP. And there are sufficient pilots in the pipeline for about six years... All drawing salary while they wait their turn, all counting against the CAF's maximum number of personnel... BTL is part of the 71,500 target; if BTL exceeds allocation, then TES isn't filled.

Until the RCAF can sort out training progession and capacity to get to OFP in a reasonable timeline, why recruit in numbers that merely perpetuate or worsen the problem?
 

dimsum

Army.ca Legend
Mentor
Reaction score
4,089
Points
1,260
Until the RCAF can sort out training progession and capacity to get to OFP in a reasonable timeline, why recruit in numbers that merely perpetuate or worsen the problem?
I wonder why the CAF doesn't make widespread use of lateral recruitment. I've met some Brits and a Belgian who have come over, but it's not a common thing. The Australians are famous for poaching trained military members, so why can't we?

There would be a bit of integration training of course, but you're saving a ton of training costs compared to someone off the street.
 

Zoomie

Army.ca Veteran
Mentor
Reaction score
177
Points
680
Until the RCAF can sort out training progession and capacity to get to OFP in a reasonable timeline, why recruit in numbers that merely perpetuate or worsen the problem?
Agree 100% - we don't need more baby-Pilots. We need to retain our experience via appropriate methods and stop the airline poach. COVID doesn't count either as the hiring spree will continue in less than 2 years. Max has already addressed this numerous times - the only way to retain is to be competitive.
 

dapaterson

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
7,158
Points
1,090
There's the urban legend that a non-zero number of pilots accepted FRP from Canada, incentives from the Aussies, then incentives from Canada, all to jump to and fro amongst the two militaries.
 

kev994

Sr. Member
Reaction score
706
Points
1,060
I wonder why the CAF doesn't make widespread use of lateral recruitment. I've met some Brits and a Belgian who have come over, but it's not a common thing. The Australians are famous for poaching trained military members, so why can't we?

There would be a bit of integration training of course, but you're saving a ton of training costs compared to someone off the street.
We did a bit when the Brits downsized, 435 had a former RAF pilot. I recall CBC did a short article criticizing the hiring of a tanker pilot that didn’t have any A310 time. They didn’t bother pointing out that he had a crap-ton of Herc time and a crap-ton of tanker time, and he was hired for the Herc tanker. Facts don’t make good news I guess.
 

Blackadder1916

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
1,173
Points
1,160
From a British Army Air Corps report (2015) that I linked to in a previous post on this thread, they also discussed the loss of pilots to private sector and foreign militaries.

e. Foreign military.

(1) Canadian Air Force. The Canadian Air Force are currently recruiting OF3 / 4 to fill structural gaps in their manning as they cannot grow their own aircrew at this rank. The financial package is not known but is comparable to UK salary but includes Canadian citizenship and continues to attract those seeking a perceived improvement to their work / life balance and quality of life.

(2) Australian Army. Officers and SNCO aircrew have transferred to the Australian Army. In addition to the rates of pay being highly competitive, the relocation package is attractive and is the perceived quality of life for their family including Australian citizenship.

(3) The Middle East. At least 3 x A2 OHIs have left to work in the Middle East on AH, in Search and Rescue or as a flight instructor during the last year. While actual salary is hear-say the financial package ranges from about £125k — £200K (tax free) excluding fringe benefits such as free accommodation.
 

dapaterson

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
7,158
Points
1,090
There are Canadian immigration / employment regulations, applicable to the CAF as well, which have the effect of slowing the process.
 

SupersonicMax

Army.ca Veteran
Mentor
Reaction score
1,309
Points
1,110
There are Canadian immigration / employment regulations, applicable to the CAF as well, which have the effect of slowing the process.
They tend to get put aside when we hire experienced folks. I know 4-5 pilots that were hired from the French Air Force, Belgian Air Component and Royal Navy. Their journey was rather quick.
 
Top