Niagara Taser death

[Slim]

Niagara Taser death

BREAK-IN SUSPECT DIES SHORTLY AFTER BEING SHOT BY STUN GUN

By JONATHAN JENKINS, TORONTO SUN

http://torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2005/07/02/1114105-sun.html

ONLY A few days after Niagara police front-line supervisors were issued Tasers, a man died yesterday shortly after being shot with one.

"They told me he went into a house and all that, but they also said they used that Taser gun on him," Apat Foldi, the father of James Foldi, 39, said.

"He was going around in circles and the police didn't want to go near him. So they used this gun on him and boom -- done."

Niagara police said they were called out to Beamsville around 2:30 a.m. after several complaints of a man breaking into homes.

They said they tracked down a suspect in the area and arrested him, then noticed right away he needed medical attention

He was taken to West Lincoln hospital and pronounced dead.

The province's Special Investigations Unit confirmed a Taser was used on Foldi.

"An autopsy is being held as we speak and the pathologist is determining what the cause of death is -- we'll go from there," SIU spokesman Rose Bliss said.

"Obviously, it's also important to note the Taser is an approved, less-than-lethal-use-of-force weapon that the police are authorized to use."

Apat Foldi said he last spoke to his son on Tuesday.

"He was fine, everything was no problem," he said.

He acknowledged his son did have problems with drugs and alcohol and wondered whether that may have played a role.

"They test them on normal people. They don't test people on alcohol or drugs to see if it works on them," Foldi said.

"If someone's drunk or on drugs and they use it on them, maybe it kills them."

However, Foldi stressed he didn't know many details of what happened and was waiting to see the result of the investigation before he came to any conclusion.

"I have to wait to see what's coming out of it," he said.

Niagara cops announced May 13 that front-line supervisors would begin carrying Tasers on routine patrol starting in the last week of June.

Members of Niagara's Emergency Response Unit also carry the weapons, as do tactical teams in Toronto, Peel and Durham.

At least nine people have died after being hit with Tasers in Canada since the weapon was approved.
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Why do the media make criminals out to be victims? I would really like an answer to that!

A drug and alcohol abuser breaking into someone's house. He poses a danger to himself and others, so the police do the sensible thing and tase him and he dies....Now the "poor drug user" was brutalized by the big bad police and their tazer "weapon."

F*****G clowns, I hate the media almost as much as the "poor" criminals they defend!

Slim

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

What they fail to realise is without a stun gun it reduces the options a cop has and go right to lethal force.

 

[Slim]

What they fail to realise is without a stun gun it reduces the options a cop has and go right to lethal force.

You got it!...But then they'd have nothing to whine about! Besides the tazer is "less-lethal' not "non-lethal." And when it comes right down to it why should the cops have to endanger themselves to take some strung out junkie, high on whatever, into custody?!

 

[Blackhorse7]

Regardless, the way things are going, we are going to lose them.  People just cannot seem to grasp that with a Tazer, you might die, under certain conditions, like cocaine physcosis (I know, spelling), but with a firearm, you will almost certainly die.  Take your pick, and let's move on with this crap.  Like CFL says, the label on the box says "less lethal", not "this is going to sting a bit."

 

[paracowboy]

here's a letter I wrote to the Edmonton Sun and Edmonton Journal a few months back. It was printed in both, with a supportive comment from the editors:

In regards to the article on the dangers of Tasers being used by Law Enforcement Personnel to subdue dangerous criminals, I have an idea that may go a long way towards reducing the number of fatalities accidentally resulting.
Now, it may sound a little crazy, but here goes: Stop breaking the law.
Now, should you choose not to heed this advice, here's more: Don't resist the police when they attempt to apprehend you.
Just a thought.

 

[Blackhorse7]

True enough paracowboy, but if I didn't know better, I'd think your're trying to put me out of a job and get me back into the Big Green Machine.... 

 

[The_Falcon]

3 Divisions in Toronto are trialing the use of tasers by supervisors.  I am just waiting for the first time they use it and someone dies.  Every leftist nut in the city will "outraged", and demanding that their use be halted.  Of course our leftist mayor, council and police services board will be appalled and immediately bow to the demands of these people.  Once again leaving our officers with the choice of wait for the ETF to arrive to a situation, and take their chances during that wait.  Or be forced to use lethal force. 

 

[Slim]

Once again leaving our officers with the choice of wait for the ETF to arrive to a situation, and take their chances during that wait.  Or be forced to use lethal force. 

I dunno...The last time some whacko wanted to do the "suicide by cop" with a couple of knives the TPS just hit the guy with a cruiser and pinned him to a bike locking rack.

I guess there are easier ways though...

 

[paracowboy]

I dunno...The last time some whacko wanted to do the "suicide by cop" with a couple of knives the TPS just hit the guy with a cruiser and pinned him to a bike locking rack.

I like it!

 

[The_Falcon]

I dunno...The last time some whacko wanted to do the "suicide by cop" with a couple of knives the TPS just hit the guy with a cruiser and pinned him to a bike locking rack.

I guess there are easier ways though...

Well yeah they did, but what happens when the dude is not in area where they can do that. 

 

[Rebel_RN]

It seems as though every time you turn around society as a whole is crying out for these criminals to be stopped, and rightly so. The problem lies in the fact that when action is taken and the outcome is less than favorable society then switches gears and cries outrage. If you are breaking a law you pay the consequences and are labeled a criminal in most cases, but if you are breaking the law and the consequences that are merrited out to you are less then favorable in the eyes of some, you are labeled a "martyr" or "some poor misunderstood soul". Where is the justice in that? The times have changed, criminals are more violent/"crazy" in some cases and need to be stopped quickly and efficiently. I'm not saying that this warrants each criminal to be shot and or killed so please don't misunderstand what I am saying, but they do need to be stopped and if that comes in the form of Tazers, bean bag rounds, tear gas, or nets then so be it. The way things keep going it will soon be the criminals/bad guys that rule our country. They seem to have more rights then the average law abiding citizen anyhow........just my humble opinion and 2 cents.
Rebel

 

[devil39]

I would imagine that they are reasonably safe.  I'm still here.

I got "Tazed" as part of a demo, and trust me they are very effective.  I was at work at the time, and therefore not under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

 

[muskrat89]

Almost every department here has them, carried by every officer (not just supervisors). In most Departments, Officers who carry them get "tazed" themselves, as part of their training.

 

[2 Cdo]

Like most press articles about either the police or the military you will always have the "Monday morning quarterbacks" who second guess everything that we do. I find it easiest to just ignore them as they are usually the ramblings of someone who has never found themselves in the position of whether or not to use force to diffuse a situation!

Paracowboy, you nailed it! It really is that simple, quit committing crimes and the police will not use lethal/non-lethal force against you!

 

[dutchie]

Although Blackhorse alluded to it earlier, I don't think a lot of people realize that every time a tazer is used, it saves a life (unless the guy dies of course). My understanding from my cop friends is that tazers are used in place of a firearm. That is, they are only used when deadly force is authorized. It's not as if without tazers, the cop would have used his baton or OC spray - he would have used his firearm. So, if say 1 out of 10,000 tazers result in the death of the shitrat, er 'suspect', that means tazers saved 9,999 lives. Keep in mind that they have a very short range, and a cop is not likely to miss the centre of mass (with the alternative firearm) at 20 feet.

Taking tazers out of the hands of cops will result in more deaths, albeit by firearms.

 

[The_Falcon]

Although Blackhorse alluded to it earlier, I don't think a lot of people realize that every time a tazer is used, it saves a life (unless the guy dies of course). My understanding from my cop friends is that tazers are used in place of a firearm. That is, they are only used when deadly force is authorized. It's not as if without tazers, the cop would have used his baton or OC spray - he would have used his firearm. So, if say 1 out of 10,000 tazers result in the death of the shitrat, er 'suspect', that means tazers saved 9,999 lives. Keep in mind that they have a very short range, and a cop is not likely to miss the centre of mass (with the alternative firearm) at 20 feet.

Taking tazers out of the hands of cops will result in more deaths, albeit by firearms.

We know that, and cops know that, but all the media and the left wing nuts care about is that someone died, even though a "less than lethal" device was used.  They just don't understand the concept of "less than lethal".  And some of these (specifically the ones in Toronto) would probably be more than happy if we took away firearms from cops, and had them sit inside their cruisers all day, so as not to offend anyones right to be a crazy drug and a alcohol  addicted menace who harrasses jo blow on the street. 

A couple of weeks back The Toronto Police service held two open houses for the media to attend.  The first was to experience a day in the life of a recruit, the second was hosted by the ETF.  Despite the dozen or so press people that attened (The police service posted on its site who attended) both events only Recall CityTV actually airing the story about the recruit event.  I never saw anything about the ETF one, were members of the press had the opportunity to be tazed and see for them selves what it is like.  And some were (TPS posted the pics on thier site).  One can only guess why Toronto predominatly lib-left media never mentioned any of this.  I mean then they would not be able to bemaon the police when they used tazers.

 

[Slim]

"We know that, and cops know that, but all the media and the left wing nuts care about is that someone died, even though a "less than lethal" device was used.  They just don't understand the concept of "less than lethal".

Oh, they understand it full well...they just don't say it because screeming that the police "murdered" someone always sells more papers, or airtime, or whatever.

For god sakes don't let the truth get in the way of a good story!

 

[The_Falcon]

Yeah really,  and now there is a large marjority of lefties on the Toronto Police Services Board, now that Mayor Miller and some other dude have now been sworn in.  This does not bode well for our boys in blue.  I can very well see them not issuing tasers to front line supervisors once the trial period is up in the three Divisions. 

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

use of "less than lethal" force is a very misunderstood idea

many  militaries and police units have tried it with a lot of success but it seems we hear more often the failure rate.

rubber bullets replaced wooden bullets used by  riot forces  in Northern Ireland, and the middle east.  Both are non lethal till something happens to change how the projectile hits the subject matter. 

From what  i understand, i may  be wrong in how they are suppose to work, the  idea was to fire the weapon so that  bullet would skip across the ground, and bouce up and hit the person above the knees.  it worked sometimes, other times it failed because the officer fired too high or fired directly at the protestor or riotting person or some one walked into line of fire.  A direct hit culd be deadly from either round, depending on range and where  the person was hit

Bean bags fired, do not know anyone personally  who hasbeen  hit or who done the firing but according to the Discovery Channel People I saw on tv it was an affective way  of putting down the subject.  depending where they  got hit and how far away  the shooter was.


Water Cannons depending on the water pressure and how close the subject was to the blast it could do more just knock the person down.

Tear gas, can cause serious breathing problems for the breathing impaired person.  this could be fatal for that  person.
When gashut training I could take large doses of cs gas and never so much as have my eyes water or nose run,  others were puking and crying till i thought they  would drown.  Other times the cs was enough to make me want to run screaming into the fresh air. Depends on the day  i guess and the gas conditions. i enjoyed the gas hut training.  just hated having to eat my apple in there.

Pepper spray not always effective for everyone,  i am sure there are some of us here who attest to the spraying of pepper spray and having little or no affect on the subject or having way  too much affect.

Chemicals used as less than lethal force do not always work.

There was a guy in barracks in Toronto , he drove for the General of LFCA, he had a tazer , not sure where he got it, nor do i care.  it was one that  had to make direct contact with the subject.  I played with it , would light paper on fire if the piece of paper was between the metal pins that  protuded out. I shocked myself with it, while screwing around with it. It hurt more then i thought it would.

I think if less than lethal force is used in the right context and used properly on 100 percent healthy subjects like the test cases they use to prove them, and  it used under 100 percent calm, controlled test labs they will work like designed. On the other hand when used in the field there is no control factors built into the use of the less than lethal device.  It is a judgement call and the person using it is the one making the call and that  person is hoping it will work and be the end of the problem.  If  I was a police officer i would hope that the less than lethal device worked and worked well because I woud not want to have be the officer using my sidearm and using deadly  force when there are other ways.

Police service boards made up of non police officers and un trained people who making the decesions to allow or not allow these devices need to see the cause and affect up close. They  should also have to see the aftermath of a police officer using his or her side arm to take a life that could of be handled another way.

I think all officers who patrol the streets should have some sort of less than lethal device on his or her belt.  Should it be a tazer of some sort, pepper or chemical spray,  night stick is not always the answer. As long as the officer is trained to a high standard in the use of this weapon they  should have it. I think any of them under the right conditions will provide that officer with a level of protection for themself and the public in general.  A bullet should be the last resort.

 

[Roy Harding]

use of "less than lethal" force is a very misunderstood idea

...

I think all officers who patrol the streets should have some sort of less than lethal device on his or her belt.  Should it be a tazer of some sort, pepper or chemical spray,  night stick is not always the answer. As long as the officer is trained to a high standard in the use of this weapon they  should have it. I think any of them under the right conditions will provide that officer with a level of protection for themself and the public in general.  A bullet should be the last resort.

Perhaps we could call Tasers and similar technologies "less than intentional lethal force", and 9MM or .45 rounds "intentional llethal force"?

In other words - if I'm tasing, gassing, or pepper spraying you, I intend that you should live; if I'm firing my pistol/revolver at you, I'm intending to kill you - your choice.