New Ontario Government 2018

[YZT580]

Perhaps there is a sweet spot for the number of people required: regardless of population.  Any more than a couple of dozen makes general meetings unwieldy with too many different opinions to try and reconcile.  On the other hand a certain number are required to head committees and planning groups and to respond to constituent complaints. These numbers don't increase exponentially with population.  Most complaints are already handled at the receptionist level; only a few actually go to the the councillor for his/her response.  So  what is the sweet spot?  Perhaps around 25 to 30 making cities like Ottawa and Hamilton just about right. 

 

[Altair]

Perhaps there is a sweet spot for the number of people required: regardless of population.  Any more than a couple of dozen makes general meetings unwieldy with too many different opinions to try and reconcile.  On the other hand a certain number are required to head committees and planning groups and to respond to constituent complaints. These numbers don't increase exponentially with population.  Most complaints are already handled at the receptionist level; only a few actually go to the the councillor for his/her response.  So  what is the sweet spot?  Perhaps around 25 to 30 making cities like Ottawa and Hamilton just about right.

A disorderly mob is no more an army than a heap of building materials is a house-Socrates.

Again, how Montreal can have a city council of 65 people work with little issues, legislation flowing, and projects getting done, while Toronto is a unruly mob with 47 Councillors is simple.

It's all a matter of organization. In this case, parties.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4358422/toronto-city-council-other-cities/

Here’s how Toronto compares to other cities of a similar size:

Toronto, population of 2.73 million

The city of Toronto currently has a mayor and a council of 47 seats, that serve 47 wards. That gives an average population per ward of about 62,082 people.

Each district directly elects their chosen councillor who sits on council.

The new configuration would have a mayor and a council of 25 seats. That would give an average population per ward of 109,262 people.

Los Angeles, population of 4.0 million

L.A. has a larger population than Toronto, but fewer councillors. Its council is made up of 15 seats plus the mayor, giving an average population per councillor of 266,651.

But, there are districts in L.A. that have their own municipalities, for example Santa Monica has its own city council with 12 seats, and Beverly Hills has another with five seats.

Chicago, population of 2.72 million

ChicagoA very comparable size to Toronto, Chicago has a city council that is made up of 50 aldermen plus the mayor, giving an average ward population of 54,329 people.

According to state law, ward borders shift after every federal census to be in line with the population.

Brisbane, Australia, population of 2.35 million

There are 26 wards in Brisbane, and 26 councillors plus the mayor sit on council.

According to the city website, there is an average of 28,446 electors per ward, but that doesn’t include non-voting members of the ward.

Rome, Italy, population of 2.87 million

Rome’s city council is made up of 48 members plus the mayor. Voting is party-based and proportional, meaning the percentage of votes for a certain party dictates the number of councillors.

There is no average ward population because there are no wards.

Madrid, Spain, population of 3.14 million

Along with their mayor, 57 council members sit on city council. Like Rome, the council is elected by proportional representation.

Osaka, Japan, population of 2.67 million people 

Osaka, Japan is another city that is close in population size to Toronto. According to the city of Osaka website, there are 24 wards and the number of councillors per ward is based on the population of the ward.

Here’s how other Canadian cities compare:
Ottawa, population of 934,243

In Ottawa, there are 23 city councillors and a mayor. The population per councillor is 40,619.

Ford has said there are no plans to change the council in Ottawa.

Winnipeg, population of 705,245

There are currently 14 wards with one councillor each in Winnipeg, plus a mayor, with an average population per ward of 50,374, based on 2016 numbers.

But there are plans for the next municipal election to up that number to 15 wards.

Calgary, population of 1.27 million

There are 14 councillors and a mayor on city council in Calgary. The average population of the wards weren’t available online, but the population per councillor was calculated at 82,615.

Vancouver, population of 647,540

Vancouver doesn’t have wards, it elects 10 councillors at large along with a mayor. That means voters pick their 10 people on their ballots, and the candidates with the most votes are elected.

The population per councillor is 64,754.

Montreal, population of 1.7 million

There are 65 elected officials in Montreal consisting of one mayor, 18 borough mayors and 46 city councillors.  Since there are borough mayors in the same region as council wards, the average population per councillor is lower than other major cities at 26,635. The average population per ward is 37,059.

There are also borough councils, on which city councilors of that borough sit. Montrealers also elect extra borough councilors if there aren’t five city councillors in the district.

Edmonton, population of 899,447

The city of Edmonton has 12 wards plus one mayor. Average population per councillor was calculated at 64,246, but ward populations ranged from 63,048 to 92,332..

So most cities around the world have more or less come to the conclusion that a city councillor shouldn't have more than 100 thousand constituents, but of course, Toronto is going to be special.

So there is no consensus magic number, but either way, Toronto is going to be on the high side.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

A disorderly mob is no more an army than a heap of building materials is a house-Socrates.

Again, how Montreal can have a city council of 65 people work with little issues, legislation flowing, and projects getting done, while Toronto is a unruly mob with 47 Councillors is simple.

It's all a matter of organization. In this case, parties.

Montreal doesn't work though.  Have you been there?  It is the exact opposite of working! Citing the most corrupt city in Canada as an example for Toronto to emulate is  :facepalm:

 

[Remius]

Perhaps there is a sweet spot for the number of people required: regardless of population.  Any more than a couple of dozen makes general meetings unwieldy with too many different opinions to try and reconcile.  On the other hand a certain number are required to head committees and planning groups and to respond to constituent complaints. These numbers don't increase exponentially with population.  Most complaints are already handled at the receptionist level; only a few actually go to the the councillor for his/her response.  So  what is the sweet spot?  Perhaps around 25 to 30 making cities like Ottawa and Hamilton just about right.

Ottawa has 12 standing committees.  None of them seem frivolous to me and seem to all have a purpose (as in not fluffy).  Each has a chair and a few members.  So Ottawa has 23 council members plus the mayor who sits on at least one committee.  there are also 5 advisory committees with a council member acting as a liaison.  there is also an Aboriginal Working committee but does not seem to have any council members on that.

Toronto has 12 Standing committees but...has 65 community council and other advisory and boards etc.  Seems a bit excessive.

 

[Altair]

Montreal doesn't work though.  Have you been there?  It is the exact opposite of working! Citing the most corrupt city in Canada as an example for Toronto to emulate is  :facepalm:

How does Montreal not work? When did Denis Corderre have issues passing legislation, or approving projects? Or Valarie Plante? Corderre was easily able to finance and approve the disaster that the Formula E race, was able to push the nonsense for the Montreal 375, the mayor of Montreal and their party doesn't have to herd cats like in Toronto to get things done. In large cities, it seems like having political parties at the municipal level is the way to go.

As for corruption, I think you are talking two Mayors ago, for I haven't heard anything regarding Corderre or Plante. Have you? Calling Montreal the most corrupt city in Canada is quite a claim to make without any evidence.

 

[YZT580]

Saying Toronto councillors are independent of a party is flat out wrong.  The vast majority are NDP.  The only difference in individuals is the distance to the left which varies to the extreme.

 

[Remius]

Actually it is flat out right.  There is no party system, no whip etc.  How one leans politically is not the same thing.

 

[Altair]

Saying Toronto councillors are independent of a party is flat out wrong.  The vast majority are NDP.  The only difference in individuals is the distance to the left which varies to the extreme.

They may be ideologically NDP, but their is no party apparatus that can keep them in line.

 

[FJAG]

Ontario caps off summer session with bill slashing Toronto city council

'People want smaller government,' Premier Doug Ford says, but court challenge looms

CBC News · Posted: Aug 14, 2018 3:54 PM ET |

Ontario has approved a plan to reduce the number of Toronto city councillors from 47 to 25 ahead of this October's election.

The province's new Progressive Conservative government passed the Better Local Government Act, also known as Bill 5, on Tuesday afternoon, despite receiving no support from the opposition parties, which condemned the move as undemocratic during debates. . . .

See full article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/better-local-government-act-passes-1.4785145

:cheers:

 

[Xylric]

See full article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/better-local-government-act-passes-1.4785145

:cheers:

Might be a silly question, but how on earth does the province have the power to reduce the number of municipal Councillors?

 

[larry Strong]

Under Canada's constitution, municipalities officially exist as "creatures of the provinces," meaning that their very existence in Ontario is completely dependent on the will of Queen's Park.


Cheers
Larry

 

[mariomike]

Reply #128,

> "Ontario caps off summer session with bill slashing Toronto city council"

The City of Brockville has 8 councillors for 30,000 residents. Roughly 1 councillor per 3,750 constituents.
https://brockville.com/index.cfm?ID=205

The City of Toronto will now have 1 councillor per 112,000 constituents.

Only reason I mention Brockville is because their former mayor, now Minister of Municipal Affairs, was tweeting about it,

"Our gov’t #ForThePeople has delivered a streamlined, cost-effective Toronto council and is ensuring local gov’t works to make life better for all. for your leadership and our @OntarioPCParty caucus for your support!"
https://twitter.com/SteveClarkPC/status/1029490942083039232

 

[Cloud Cover]

Under Canada's constitution, municipalities officially exist as "creatures of the provinces," meaning that their very existence in Ontario is completely dependent on the will of Queen's Park.


Cheers
Larry

Agree. However, the arbitrary exercise of power by a Province will always attract scrutiny for an potential effects that impact democratic rights of its citizens. It would be an uphill battle for Toronto to establish a genuine case without a sympathetic ear from the judiciary, which is entirely possible and damned near probable. Doesn't mean the city will win, but they will have a full opportunity to litigate.

 

[FJAG]

Under Canada's constitution, municipalities officially exist as "creatures of the provinces," meaning that their very existence in Ontario is completely dependent on the will of Queen's Park.


Cheers
Larry

You will generally find provincial legislation which deals with municipal structures, powers etc throughout the province. In most provinces it's called the "Municipal Act". It's also quite common to make special provincial legislation for some of the larger centres (such as the City of Winnipeg Act, the City of Toronto Act etc) that deal with that specific municipality. Long story short, whatever structure, powers etc that a given municipality has is as a result of provincial enabling legislation.

On top of that there are several other acts in each province such as "Planning Acts", "Municipal Elections Acts", "Municipal Conflict of Interest Act", etc which deal with specialized categories of powers and responsibilities

:cheers:

 

[larry Strong]

You will generally find provincial legislation which deals with municipal structures, powers etc throughout the province. In most provinces it's called the "Municipal Act". It's also quite common to make special provincial legislation for some of the larger centres (such as the City of Winnipeg Act, the City of Toronto Act etc) that deal with that specific municipality. Long story short, whatever structure, powers etc that a given municipality has is as a result of provincial enabling legislation.

On top of that there are several other acts in each province such as "Planning Acts", "Municipal Elections Acts", "Municipal Conflict of Interest Act", etc which deal with specialized categories of powers and responsibilities

:cheers:

Thanks for that 

I would be the first to admit I was spouting the layman's version...

Cheers
Larry

 

[FJAG]

Thanks for that 

I would be the first to admit I was spouting the layman's version...

Cheers
Larry

You were actually bang on. Specifically s 92(8) of the Constitution Act, 1867 (previously known as the British North America Act, 1867) provides as follows:

92. In each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Matters coming within the Classes of Subjects next hereinafter enumerated; that is to say,
. . .
8. Municipal Institutions in the Province.
. . .

Hence, municipalities are exclusively creatures of the provincial legislatures.

:cheers:

 

[mariomike]

Unfortunately, according to the 2000 report from the Toronto city solicitor, the Canadian constitution gives the Province of Ontario the right to opt out of any  federal amendment that takes away from its provincial legislative power over Toronto.

Meaning, Ontario would have to agree to allow the secession of Toronto from the province.

In 2000, Toronto city council proposed for Toronto secession to be made a ballot issue — only to have the proposal swiftly slapped down by Ontario’s then-Progressive Conservative government of Mike Harris.

If the GTA were allowed to secede from Ontario, its estimated $304 billion GDP would make it Canada's fourth-wealthiest province. Just behind Alberta.

It would only be slightly larger geographically than the Province of P.E.I..

Jonathan Malloy, a Carleton political science professor, called the chance of Ontario allowing Toronto to secede, "pretty much impossible."

National Post 3 Aug., 2018

 

[larry Strong]

The city of Toronto has little hope of winning a legal challenge against the newly enacted Bill 5, says a confidential legal opinion obtained Thursday by the Toronto Sun.

The opinion by city solicitor Wendy Wahlberg and her staff makes it clear that City Clerk Ulli Watkiss is “now confident” she is able to deliver a 25-ward election in time for Oct. 22, and litigation or a sudden reversal to a 47-ward model will result in “continued uncertainty” for voters, candidates and those administering the election.

“Among other things it could undermine the clerk’s ability to administer a fair election and public confidence in a fair outcome of the election,” Wahlberg’s opinion states.

More at link...

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/levy-citys-legal-eagles-say-fighting-bill-5-a-hopeless-case


Cheers
Larry

 

[Jarnhamar]

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2018/08/21/premier-doug-ford-puts-stop-to-drivers-licence-fee-hike.html

Premier Doug Ford puts stop to driver’s licence fee hike


Motorists are getting a break as Doug Ford’s new Progressive Conservative government slams the brakes on fee increases slated to kick in Sept. 1 for driver’s licences and related knowledge and road tests.

 

[Bluebulldog]

Ottawa has 12 standing committees.  None of them seem frivolous to me and seem to all have a purpose (as in not fluffy).  Each has a chair and a few members.  So Ottawa has 23 council members plus the mayor who sits on at least one committee.  there are also 5 advisory committees with a council member acting as a liaison.  there is also an Aboriginal Working committee but does not seem to have any council members on that.

Toronto has 12 Standing committees but...has 65 community council and other advisory and boards etc.  Seems a bit excessive.

This is the crux of much of this debate. It's not necessarily the amount of bodies......it's what they effectively do.

Several smaller municipalities cited in earlier posts actually have part time councillors. ( Not every municipal councillor job is a full time gig).

Several municipalities also have effective staff and committees which are often volunteer, or partial compensation, which work extremely well at developing policy, and making recommendations for same.

Several municipalities also have admin staff ( Toronto is no different). The notion that Toronto City Councillors are always the face that a member of their constituency sees is fallacy. Most have staff who in fact filter, and respond to the majority of inquiries, and issues, ( often without the councillor even getting involved).

Is Ford taking issue with Toronto in particular? Of course. Is it "revenge"? Possibly.....or quite possibly he's doing something about a government he previously served on, and has esoteric knowledge of, and was powerless to do anything about it when he served.

Yes. The GTA is upset.... The previous Govt. treated it as the center of the Universe, to the detriment of the rest of the Province. They have just fallen out of favour as the favourite child....some sulking and whining is to be expected.