New Ontario Government 2018

[YZT580]

What skills are actually learnt in university that can't be taught in a one or two year college course as was the case up until the mid-70's? I can almost guarantee that for anyone over 40 most of your best teachers were the product of that system.  Many went on to get degrees (to up their pay levels) but they were teachers first and the distinction is important.

As was pointed out above, and is true in many professions, the actual materiel to be taught can be broken down into segments and instructed by individuals who really don't have a lot of background: excepting sciences and maths.  History, geography and the like can be acquired by personal study.  They are simply knowledge based classes.  In fact, getting rid of the history majors might not hurt as the courses would have to revert to events, causes and results based on facts rather than the teacher's interpretation, clouded by his/her own biases.  Languages need specialised teachers for sure but a four year major in languages does not provide the skills necessary to present the language in a way that permits the student to master it. 

The skills needed to teach are not taught in a general course.  They come after the fact and are or should be focused on lesson preparation, presentation, classroom management, discipline, dealing with parents and child behaviour.  We have put the emphasis on academic qualifications and taken it off teaching capability.  IMHO

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Remius] An A PLQ/IJLC with a mod on instructing does not equate to a degree in education.[/quote]
What about a PLQ with a mod in instructing and 15 years of experience instructing a multitude of subjects from basic training to advanced courses. Teaching students with grade 10 level educations to MAs and PhDs. Teaching Canadians, Latvians, Afghans, Ukrainians, Iraqi's, Jordanians and so on?

I agree instructors are different than teachers but our military instructors have a little more to them than just a mod on instructing.

I have a few teacher friends. Like the military, they recycle lesson plans and courses. Plug and play.

 

[The Bread Guy]

What about a PLQ with a mod in instructing and 15 years of experience instructing a multitude of subjects from basic training to advanced courses. Teaching students with grade 10 level educations to MAs and PhDs. Teaching Canadians, Latvians, Afghans, Ukrainians, Iraqi's, Jordanians and so on?

Yup -- I agree that there's at least some overlap between the work teachers do and the work military instructors do.  I've seen some military instructors transfer information/knowledge better than some post-secondary teachers.  The biggest difference is this right here:

... Military instructors have the CoC and the NDA behind them to get their jobs done ...

While the school system is supposed to have the backs of teachers in general, the CF (even when it's not as tough as the "good old days") offers more & different tools to instructors to support classroom & behaviour management.  Also, CF instructors (at least Reg Force) have a lot more control of out-of-classroom time (even if you can't eliminate all the environmental friction-makers) than teachers do.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Remius]

But a few things come to mind. [/quote]
Really liked your points and agree with all of them.

1) Teacher seniority is an issue the union does not what to drop.  Seniority should not be the basis of hiring or getting plum spots,  Merit should be.  Teachers should drop that but I doubt the union will.

Absolutely. A big gripe is that shitty teachers aren't called out for being shitty because they have seniority. People with seniority also get a really big case of entitlement. Like someone working full time should get all the best shifts/positions and part timers get screwed over.

2) If funding is an issue then drop expensive programs like French immersion.  If you want your kids to be bilingual send them to French school.  French immersion causes the system to be unbalanced and creates schools where most students don't need as much one on one and others (the non-immersion ones) with high concentrations of students who need more attention.  But it brings in students and that translates to money for boards.  Take those funds and reinvest in programs for students with special needs.

It does seem like French immersion is a weird thing. Put the money else where.

3) Integration needs to go.  Integrating special needs students was a dumb idea and is likely contributing to teacher burnout.  Recruit more specialised teachers for that and redirect more ECEs to those classes.

100%.
I don't think it benefits either range of students. My daughter has an (unfortunately) super disruptive kid in her class with special needs. The whole class is suffering and being brought down because of it. Parents are getting super pissed off. Teacher said they school won't touch the issue.

4) I have no issues with teachers asking for more money even if it was more than the rate of inflation.  That's what collective bargaining is for.

Asking for more money is fine. Protesting and making kids education suffer and super inconveniencing parents because they're being told no is not fine IMO.

5) There are some crappy teachers out there and virtually not mechanism to get rid of them.  Principals need to have the power to fire some of them.  The union will never go for that though.

Absolutely. Needs to have some quality control. I'm no brain myself but I've talked to some teachers and thought you're as dumb as a post. It's incredible to think they have university educations.

All things considered, Doug Ford is losing the PR war but only just barely.  Teachers are on thin ice with parents.  While I think most do support them, that might change if they don't see any willingness to compromise.

No idea if Doug Ford is a crappy leader or not, haven't really been following. I'm confident putting a lot of the blame for our budget and need to make crazy cuts on the Liberals door steps.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=milnews.ca] The biggest difference is this right here:While the school system is supposed to have the backs of teachers in general, the CF (even when it's not as tough as the "good old days") offers more & different tools to instructors to support classroom & behaviour management.
[/quote]

True.

I may be wrong but I've found lately we as an institution are hyper worried about optics and passing the Toronto Star test. Soldiers who mess up and should get hammered for it know how to work the system and know they'll look like a victim to Twitter and Facebook and the CAF backs off. That's going down another fox hole though.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... Soldiers who mess up and should get hammered for it know how to work the system and know they'll look like a victim to Twitter and Facebook and the CAF backs off. That's going down another fox hole though.

That's why I caveated with the fact that the system may not be quite as supportive in the same way as it was when I was still a young Reserve MCPL

 

[Brad Sallows]

Teaching kids, who have to be there, is substantially different than teaching adults, who at some level must have chosen to be there.  The few ex-mil people who successfully take up teaching after mil retirement will mostly be found in secondary schools, not elementary.

The formal part of learning to teach is basically a one-year post-secondary program - it doesn't matter whether it's taught at a "college" or "university" unless you care about the flavour of the credential.  (It can be stretched out to two years for less ambitious people.)

 

[mariomike]

Where I work my seniority is rewarded with pay, longer leave entitlement etc. 

Where I worked, the three emergency services were all unionized on three different dates in 1917 and 1918.

Whatever ones opinion is on seniority, it is what it is, it always has been, and probably always will be.

So, the younger you join, the better your date.

But if I apply for another position, it plays no role other than the fact that I might have gained some experience but if I am a crappy candidate or a better candidate with less time in but is a better choice, then that is what counts.  Just because someone spends 20 years in a position does not mean they should automatically get the job.

In our local, it depended on the Job Posting. Some were Senior Qualified Process. Some were Relative Ability Process.

 

[Remius]

This will be interesting to see how it evolves...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/education-minister-stephen-lecce-announcement-1.5483979

Teachers are now in a bad spot.  They've been saying it is about the kids an not the money.  I think they've been caught off guard by this and how they react may or may not help their cause.

 

[Jarnhamar]

This will be interesting to see how it evolves...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/education-minister-stephen-lecce-announcement-1.5483979

Teachers are now in a bad spot.  They've been saying it is about the kids an not the money.  I think they've been caught off guard by this and how they react may or may not help their cause.

It's always been "about the kids" so with no e-Learning and no larger class sizes they'll stop the protests I'm sure.

 

[YZT580]

Hard to reconcile that announcement with the one made by the high school teachers that negotiations are at a standstill and none are planned.  Certainly can't accuse the government of intransigence.  Perhaps the timing was off and the minister made the announcement before the negotiating team could inform the union.  At any rate I would say the ball is in the union court to justify continued action.  The seniority issue won't wash with most working types particularly non-union where jobs depend upon competence and not time in.

 

[mariomike]

For those ( like myself ) unfamiliar with hiring practices for Ontario teachers,

Education Act

ONTARIO REGULATION 274/12

HIRING PRACTICES

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/120274

 

[Remius]

Hard to reconcile that announcement with the one made by the high school teachers that negotiations are at a standstill and none are planned.  Certainly can't accuse the government of intransigence.  Perhaps the timing was off and the minister made the announcement before the negotiating team could inform the union.  At any rate I would say the ball is in the union court to justify continued action.  The seniority issue won't wash with most working types particularly non-union where jobs depend upon competence and not time in.

Actually it seems more and more that the unions were aware.  At first union leaders refused to answer if the knew about this.  Now they are watching their language.  Now it’s that they were not informed in writing or hadn’t heard of this in this “format”.

Looks like they’ve been outmanoeuvred here.


https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-ford-government-tries-to-outmanoeuvre-teachers-with-contract-offer

 

[mariomike]

The seniority issue won't wash with most working types < snip >

My one and only full-time job was with a unionised municipal employer here in Ontario.

So, I'm not speaking of teachers, but unions in general.

I read this regarding Retention,

Seniority does an effective job in helping people, interested in staying at one organization, in working towards having a "marathon" career. One of the goals of a seniority system is employee retention, which ensures an organization is retaining institutional knowledge, erudite employees, and an opportunity for mentorship of new hires. It's important to make sure employees are here to stay.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seniority#In_employment

< snip > where jobs depend upon competence and not time in.

I can only speak to my own experience, regarding internal Job Postings.

Regardless of seniority, to qualify, first you had to go through the assessment process. That included verbal and written tests, physical test and demonstration of skill, training, experience, work, disciplinary and attendance record and finally a panel type interview.

Only after that, if they considered you qualified, did seniority rule.

 

[YZT580]

Exactly.  Our organisation set the qualification level via scores.  Over say 70 you were included in the list. List was then organised according to time at grade. In the event of two people at grade on the same date which was always a possibility due to the competition process the placing reverted to scores.  It was simple and fair to all.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

I think the recent moves by the gov are a good step forward. I agree it would look very bad on the unions to not, at the very least, head back to the bargaining table. Although the Ottawa and eastern ON strikes slated for the Catholic & French-language boards today are still occurring as planned, hopefully there won't be further instances and parties settle.

I came across this article and found it interesting, as I could relate to the stance of the author. Her accounts (and those of her peers) ref abusive students, blame-passing parents and government/union discourse are sadly far too common. The author is now in China and I taught in South Korea. Although I was in a private school teachers are indeed revered differently. I have close friends who taught in the standard public school system in SK as well, and it was the same. Teachers are respected. There's no tolerance for misbehaving students.

While I believe seeking work overseas is drastic, since quality teachers are needed in several communities within our borders, I don't necessarily blame anyone for not wanting to deal with the added politics, drama and regular contention that's now par for the course wrt Ontario teachers.   

“One of my kids threw a chair today.”

“My kid locked himself in the classroom at lunch and then threatened to run away.”

“A parent told me I should have noticed the signs of her daughter wanting to self-harm.”

It was 2018, and my college classmates and I were swapping horror stories as the final year of our teacher’s program came to a close. Tales like ours were the norm — 70 per cent of educators see or experience similar situations in their classroom — so I would often think of the teachers I’d admired in my youth and wonder, “Were we this difficult for them?”...

Yet, over the course of teacher’s college, I saw the reality facing Ontario teachers...

My mentors were burnt out from dealing with a lack of funding, administrative miscommunication, overly demanding parents, and governments that didn’t value the students’ opinion in their education. They arrived at school in the morning dreading the day ahead, tired from the work they took home the night before...

Despite the challenges, the public expects teachers to be complacent when the government wants to make cuts that hurt the kids more than they do us...

Naysayers drag the profession through the mud and harp on the pay, benefits, retirement packages and vacation time that teachers earn. What isn’t considered as often is how much of their own money teachers all over Canada spend on their own class supplies and resources, and how many of the activities they do are voluntary.

In the latest strikes, Ontario teachers are once again taking action with students in mind. Since Premier Doug Ford assumed his role in 2018, the changes to the education system have been moving the province backwards: increasing class sizes, reducing funding for school programs and moving away from a much-needed inclusive curriculum. A student-teacher ratio reaching as high as 40:1 and e-learning won’t set students up for success.

I’ve seen this drama play out over and over again in Ontario, and I decided I wasn’t going to be part of it. After graduating in 2018, I moved to China instead. I’ve been teaching here in Shanghai for 1.5 years. I work at a Canadian international school where 97 per cent of my students are Chinese nationals hoping to attend top universities in Canada, the U.K. or other English-speaking countries. We teach the same curriculum that students in British Columbia are accustomed to, and are subject to standards of both the B.C. Ministry of Education and Shanghai’s provincial and municipal boards of education.

My class sizes are at 18 on average, but I’ve had a few with only 12 students. My biggest problem is overworked students falling asleep in class. Students hold various responsibilities in the school, and many of them want to be there because they see that their role models respect and value education...

Full article:

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/ontario-teachers-strike_ca_5e5ead07c5b6732f50e96ca7?utm_hp_ref=ca-perspectives

 

[YZT580]

Discipline and student behaviour should be separate issues entirely.  Political correctness has created an extremely toxic environment within the schools but giving a teacher more money or reducing the class size is not going to provide any improvements and any steps by the boards to institute a stricter regimen will be met by ambulance chasing lawyers.  Some of it is the result of multiculturalism particularly where women teachers are concerned.  They are considered as second-class by many of the middle-eastern immigrants.  The word of their sons is considered more germane than that of the teacher.  That compounds the problems presented by parents (of the western persuasion) who refuse to accept responsibility for their angel's actions or even accept the possibility that they might commit any offence at all.  But that is not the issue in the bargaining.  If it were, the teachers would certainly have my full support.  I don't recall the issue of school discipline ever coming up in bargaining. 
From what I gather the teachers have been offered 1% in cash and 4% in increased benefits: benefits already un-heard-of in the private sector.  That is not caring for the student's welfare.  What are my credentials for speaking out: I have a vice-principal, and 5 public school teachers in my immediate family so I have heard it all.

 

[brihard]

For ‘bigger picture’ context, Ontario corrections just got a new collective agreement that gives them 7.5% over 4 years, beginning 2018. Depending on how that’s stacked year over year, this basically is a cost of living adjustment that falls narrowly short of inflation. The nurses’ union is also at the table and it looks like they’re headed to arbitration. They’ve filed a legal challenge against the provincial wage-attrition law limiting annual increases to a well-below-inflation 1%. Interestingly, the union is arguing that there is a sexy discrimination component to this as the professions that are exempted (corrections, fire, police, etc) are male dominated. I’ll be curious to see what the courts make of that. On its face there’s a valid claim to be made of discriminatory effect.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Discipline and student behaviour should be separate issues entirely.  Political correctness has created an extremely toxic environment within the schools but giving a teacher more money or reducing the class size is not going to provide any improvements and any steps by the boards to institute a stricter regimen will be met by ambulance chasing lawyers.  Some of it is the result of multiculturalism particularly where women teachers are concerned.  They are considered as second-class by many of the middle-eastern immigrants.  The word of their sons is considered more germane than that of the teacher.  That compounds the problems presented by parents (of the western persuasion) who refuse to accept responsibility for their angel's actions or even accept the possibility that they might commit any offence at all.  But that is not the issue in the bargaining.  If it were, the teachers would certainly have my full support. I don't recall the issue of school discipline ever coming up in bargaining. 
From what I gather the teachers have been offered 1% in cash and 4% in increased benefits: benefits already un-heard-of in the private sector.  That is not caring for the student's welfare.  What are my credentials for speaking out: I have a vice-principal, and 5 public school teachers in my immediate family so I have heard it all.

No, not in those words. But larger class sizes equates to higher percentages of special needs, those with behavioural issues, etc. So the gov is readjusting their targeted class size proposal--that's very good. But it doesn't solve the issue entirely. This has been a problem for some years now. I very much agree our society has aided in how the union now dictates what measures are at teachers' disposal wrt control within their classrooms...which is basically nil.

Your point ref multiculturalism is very valid, hence an earlier comment I made in the thread that comparing the certain locations/experiences of teachers in some parts of Ontario to those in other parts of the country is entirely unrealistic. Parts of Toronto or Ottawa vs, say, any mainly higher-income, mostly Caucasian, English-speaking neighbourhood? The demographics are entirely different and can't be compared.

My main point with sharing the article was to showcase the broader picture that there are those teachers who are simply tired of the continued issues surrounding the profession, particularly in this province.

 

[YZT580]

Agreed entirely but contract negotiations no matter how sweet the results for the teacher are not going to stop the burn out.  Only a change in mindset will do that.  They should perhaps bring back the strap (he said with tongue in cheek).  Seriously though, the strap worked but the reason it worked was kids knew that when their parents found out that they had been strapped, it would happen again. 

Contract negotiations won't solve the special needs problems.  Special needs kids should never have been integrated in the first place.  It is simply too costly and too inefficient to upgrade a classroom to provide the correct facilities and then do the same to the next grade the next year and so on. So the facilities are almost always less than optimum. Special needs kids have special needs and lumping them in with even a dozen other kids means that either a) they don't get the one on one that they require or b) the other kids don't get the attention that they deserve.  They need their own facilities tailored to their needs and an expert staff dedicated to their requirements.  Political correctness put paid to that too often because the parents didn't want their child to be treated differently.

Finally, we keep adding things to the curriculum that have no business being there.  It is not a teacher's job to train my child, teach them manners, convince them to vote liberal, explain intercourse or any of the other extras we have thrown at them.  It is their job to produce a young adult that can read, write, think for themselves and use words longer than 4 letters to express themselves.  The rest is my responsibility as a parent and allowing parents to abdicate those tasks ends up doing no one any favours.

In short, regardless of what we pay them, teachers are not a parent substitute.  Paying them more won't stop burn out.  Establishing rules and enforcing them in the schools will go a long way towards negating any detrimental aspects of adding 2 kids to the roster.  School boards need to back their teachers in disciplinary decisions and learn to tell parents NO.  End of tale I have nothing further to add.  At least I don't think so.