New Name requred for the CSE Branch

[Chief Gunner]

The Combat Systems Engineering Branch of the Canadian Navy Consists of several trades. They are weapons, communications, sonar and radar technicians. These trades will  be consolidated and require a branch name.

The intention is to change the present branch name to something that would be more attractive to potential recruits. Your input and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Please post them here.


Chief Gunner

 

[McG]

The intention is to change the present branch name to something that would be more attractive to potential recruits. Your input and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Please post them here.

I suppose it is not too helpful, but I like the sound of Combat Systems Engineering.  Maybe just throw the word "Navy" at the front of it for an NCSE

 

[Chief Gunner]

I suppose it is not too helpful, but I like the sound of Combat Systems Engineering.  Maybe just throw the word "Navy" at the front of it for an NCSE

I hear you. Unfortunately 'Combat Systems Engineering'  has not been a big seller at the recruiting centres.  Neither have any of the existing trade names for that matter.

 

[Shamrock]

Non-contributional text removed.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Combat Systems Specialist
Naval Combat Systems Technician

I like the Combat Systems Engineer the best though

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Combat Systems Specialist has a nice ring to it.

Oh, I don't know.  "Armour" is a pretty cool sounding trade.

And thats not the subject. Chief Gunner is looking for some help and if you can't give it, stay out of the thread.
Milnet.Ca Staff

 

[Shamrock]

Providing a name for this branch (provided this thread is a branch-authorized reconsideration of its name, Chief Gunner is an authorized representative, and Chief Gunner will provide credit where credit is due) requires more than just the list of trades employed within the branch - you'll have to tell us the type of people employed there and the type of recruits they seek.  I for one have a very hard time taking this seriously for any of my previously mentioned reservations. 

While I understand the CF often feels the need to change a branch name here or there to suit the direction the wind is blowing, I for one would be hesitant to join a branch that changes its identity simply to appeal to more recruits (instead of changing its recruiting strategy completely); yes, I am the sort of person who would ask why a potential hirer had changed its name, what the previous name was, and what precipitated the change.  I think a superficial change like that will simply draw a superficial recruit, and given the expressed need to be levity free, I don't think any branch would benefit from a humor free, superficially committed recruit.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

I don't think the CSE branch absolutely needs levity free recruits. For one thing, the various JAFO trades seem to have first claim on them.

Dunno what kind of recruits they're seeing that's prompting this name change, but the only reason I became an NET was because my first choice of Infantry was closed and they offered me my third choice of NCSTTP. I don't think any of my classmates or the classes before and behind me actually cared about what the branch or trade was called. I certainly didn't. I have doubts on whether a branch name change will change the recruiting results.

There are a few restrictions on what a trade can be called. The biggest one is that the name "Engineer" can't be legally included unless everyone is going to be a P. Eng. There might be equivalent rules on the "Engineering Technician" or "Technologist" names too.

The scary part of this is that the 5 CSE trades might be combined, not that the names might be changed. There's already too much kit for any one person to look after in the NETT trade, leading to the NETT(1),(2),(3) and putative (4) trade split. Adding the NETC, NETA and NWT trades kit is going to lead to a "jack of all trades and master of none" situation.

 

[PuckChaser]

Combat Systems Specialist

Throw a Navy or Naval on the front of that, and it sounds pretty excellent. Combat Systems Engineering sounds good, but if a change is needed to attract recruits, Naval Combat Systems Specialist might bring some troops in.

 

[Springroll]

Naval Combat Systems Technician

I like this one the best, thus far.

 

[McG]

I hear you. Unfortunately 'Combat Systems Engineering'  has not been a big seller at the recruiting centres.

I see.  This is much like the land name change from Fire Control Systems Tech to Electro-Optical Tech.  You need something that the civillian world will recognize a parallel with some sort of occupation.

... Naval Electronic & Electromechanical Systems Tech (NEEST)?

 

[Blackadder1916]

I must agree with Shamrock.  My initial reaction was not to take this thread seriously for much the same reasons.  I readily admit that I never served in the navy, save one short stint embarked on Provider and equally short periods on a couple of USN vessels.  However I was under the impression that the trades being discussed were in the  Naval Operations "Branch" and that they were normally employed (while aboard) in the Combat Systems Engineering Department.  It may be just nomenclature, but getting it correct seems to be the intent of the exercise.  I know I don't have to request correction if I am in error.

Perhaps the problem is not with the name of the trades but with how they are described.  When reviewing the recruiting website for NE TECH (C) the following did not inspire me.

As an Apprentice, they will perform maintenance and repair on the following types of equipment:

  Internal Communication System
  Ship’s Electric Clock System
  Ship’s Entertainment Broadcast System
  Magnetic Tape Units
  High Speed Printers
  Maritime Mobile Radio System

While what they do is important, it makes it seem that they would be employed in a repair shop that deals with antiquated equipment.  There is no dazzle, nothing in the description to get an young man or woman excited about spending the next several years in class and then at sea.  You can call the trade whatever you like but if it doesn't give the potential recruit the possibility of adventure or the feeling that what they do is 'the most important thing in the navy", then it may not change the reaction of those who may view the details of the trade and move on.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

it makes it seem that they would be employed in a repair shop that deals with antiquated equipment. 

Err...that's a pretty accurate job description.

 

[CivCanuck]

They are weapons, communications, sonar and radar technicians. These trades will  be consolidated and require a branch name.

By "consolidated" do you mean that the four trades are being merged into one?  Or just that the department as it exists now needs a new title?

 

[Chief Gunner]

Well, the discussion on this issue is very interesting. I'd like to clear up a couple of things that may help clarify the situation. First Combat Systems Engineering Technician or any variable there of is not up for consideration. Second, the  described trades are not nor have they ever been part of the Naval Ops Branch. Third, the words engineer and engineering are not a copywrite of any of the the P. Eng Associations.

The future vision of the present CSE Branch will be a single entry level trade, that will branch off into five or six occupations. The entry level technician will be responsible for the maintenance of  a variety of the simpler equipment from each of the existing trades. They will then feed into 5 - 6 trades. The trades will be responsible for:

    a. Internal Communications (includes IT)
    b. External Communications
    c. Sensors
    d. Radar
    e. Armament
    f. Fire Control

These trades will then feed back into a single supervisor / manager trade at the PO1 Level.

The names they have been given for working puposes are

1. Entry Level = Weapons Engineering Technician

2.  a. Weapons Engineering Specialist Internal Communications
    b. Weapons Engineering Specialist External Communications
    c. Weapons Engineering Specialist Sensors
    d. Weapons Engineering Specialist Radar
    e. Weapons Engineering Specialist Armament
    f. Weapons Engineering Specialist Fire Control

3. Supervisor/ Manager = Weapons Engineering Specialist

I hope this leads to some constructive suggestions.

 

[Chief Gunner]

I must agree with Shamrock.  My initial reaction was not to take this thread seriously for much the same reasons.  I readily admit that I never served in the navy, save one short stint embarked on Provider and equally short periods on a couple of USN vessels.  However I was under the impression that the trades being discussed were in the  Naval Operations "Branch" and that they were normally employed (while aboard) in the Combat Systems Engineering Department.  It may be just nomenclature, but getting it correct seems to be the intent of the exercise.  I know I don't have to request correction if I am in error.

Perhaps the problem is not with the name of the trades but with how they are described.  When reviewing the recruiting website for NE TECH (C) the following did not inspire me.
While what they do is important, it makes it seem that they would be employed in a repair shop that deals with antiquated equipment.  There is no dazzle, nothing in the description to get an young man or woman excited about spending the next several years in class and then at sea.  You can call the trade whatever you like but if it doesn't give the potential recruit the possibility of adventure or the feeling that what they do is 'the most important thing in the navy", then it may not change the reaction of those who may view the details of the trade and move on.

Thanks for pointing this out Blackadder1916. I will get that page changed to accurately describe the NET(C) occupation's equipment responsibilities. Which includes:

    Remote Communication Distribution Systems
    LF/MF/HF Receive Systems
    MF/HF Transmit-Receive Systems
    VHF/UHF Radio Systems
    Satellite Communication Systems
    Automated Meteorological Systems
    Tactical Air Navigation Systems
    IT, LAN and WAN Systems

 

[McG]

... the words engineer and engineering are not a copywrite of any of the the P. Eng Associations.

No, but the words are protected by legislation.  http://www.engineerscanada.ca/e/pub_news_02_03.cfm

However, the various provinces typically include legislated exceptions for occupations such as "train pilot" and I believe the military has an exception (or it may escape the P.Eng laws through the simple fact that it is a federal entity).

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

As MCG has pointed out, the engineering terms are protected. The engineering associations have typically allowed exceptions for groups that are specifically identified such as stationary engineers but they have their own association to cover their certification. The associations are extremely unlikely to allow exceptions for any trade identified as being with IT. There's no federal exception for this rule, unless the provinces specifically allow for it.

You might want to remove "Weapons" from the titles. "Combat" and "Weapons" sound better to people in the trade than in the recruiting office.

 

[Sub_Guy]

This sounds exactly like what they were going to do with the Naval Combat Ops trades.

 

[CivCanuck]

Thanks for the clarification Chief Gunner. 

If I apply to the military, it will most likely be for NCS ENG, so this topic does interest me since it would affect the whole department. As for a potential name, I'm not great at things like this, but I like the sound of the word "specialist".  Maybe for the consolidated trade, something like "Naval Weaponry and Communications Systems Specialist" although this is a little wordy and doesn't really specify that the job is for technicians rather than operators of the systems.

Although a part of me wants to hope that people signing up for a commitment like the military are going to research all of their trade choices seriously and not make selections based on the 4 word job title. But maybe this isn't how it actually happens.