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New Guns for 1 RCHA...

Kirkhill

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http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ufh/

The M777A1 has a production weight of 3,745kg and can be transported by helicopter, transporter aircraft and ship. The howitzer can be towed by an air-braked 4x4 vehicle greater than 2.5t.
 

Jungle

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RCA said:
Shilo ranges can't be used in Nov because of hunting season.
Seriously... hunting season takes precedence over pre-deployment trg ??  :mad:
Even in this situation, where we may acquire a new weapon system in a hurry for a specific depl ??
We are worse than I thought !!!  :rage:
 

geo

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PUBLICATION: National Post
DATE: 2005.09.06
EDITION: All but Toronto
SECTION: Canada
PAGE: A12
BYLINE: Chris Wattie
SOURCE: National Post
ILLUSTRATION:Black & White Photo: Sgt. Roxanne Clowe, Canadian ForcesCombat Camera / Soldiers of the Third Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, based out of Edmonton, patrol the streets of Kandahar in southern Afghanistan.; Black & White Photo: Patrick Baz, AFP, Getty Images / The M777 in action with U.S. Marines in Iraq.; Black & White
Photo: Brian MacDonald.

WORD COUNT: 521

Kandahar mission may get bigger bang: M777 Howitzer: 'They wanted more firepower, and they wanted it fast'
The Canadian army is buying bigger guns for its artillery regiments with an eye to sending a battery of the new howitzers with the battlegroup bound for southern Afghanistan early next year.  Senior artillery officers, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the army decided earlier this year to buy as many as 15 M777 howitzers from the
United States.

"They wanted something with more firepower," said one officer. "And they wanted it fast ... [because] they're going to deploy them to Kandahar."  The M777 is one of the largest and most high-tech guns in the world, capable
of firing a 155-millimetre shell at targets up to 30 kilometres away. 

Developed by BAE Systems Land Systems and built by United Defense LP of Pascagoula, Miss., the M777 is  currently in service with the U.S. Army, U.S. Marine Corps and the Italian and British armies.

Major Daryl Morrell, a spokesman for the Canadian Forces, would only say that the military is considering buying the massive gun. "We are looking at it for a possible purchase, but there's nothing final," he said.
He said the army has been interested in acquiring a large-calibre artillery piece since retiring its M109 self-propelled howitzers earlier this year, because the newest generation of precision shells are available mainly in
the 155-mm size.

"There's a requirement for precision-guided munitions and they only come in that calibre at the moment," said Maj. Morrell.  He added that no decision has been made on whether artillery will be attached to a 1,500-member battlegroup scheduled to deploy to the southern Afghan city of Kandahar by next February.  But Jane's Defence Weekly, the prestigious international defence and security publication, said in an online article this week that Canada is in negotiations to buy the guns.  "Both diplomatic and industrial sources confirm that the Department of National Defence is in discussions with BAE and the U.S. regarding an urgent operational requirement [for the M777]," the article said.

Brian MacDonald, a former colonel in the Royal Canadian Artillery who is now an analyst with the Royal Canadian Military Institute, said the U.S.-built howitzers would give Canadian commanders on the ground a potent counterpunch if our troops come under attack.

"We know there's a good chance of trouble in Kandahar," he said. "The M777s are a very lethal, very accurate way of ending trouble."  He said a battery of the guns, linked to new radar targeting systems, could bring down a deadly rain of fire on any Taliban or al-Qaeda fighters "or anyone silly enough to fire on your base." 
"It's a precision weapon that can smack the guy who's trying to shoot at you almost instantaneously," Mr. MacDonald said. "Or if a patrol gets in trouble ... they can call down fire on anywhere they are being shot at. They can target a specific house or building and if a 155 [mm] round lands on that house, that's pretty much it for the house."

The M777 can hurl high-explosive shells up to 25 kilometres away and place them within three metres of their designated target. It can fire up to five rounds per minute. Canada has about 700 troops in Afghanistan, including an armoured reconnaissance squadron in Kabul and a military-civilian provincial reconstruction team in Kandahar.
A battery of four LG1 howitzers, lighter and smaller calibre artillery pieces, was sent to Kabul in 2003 with the first Canadian battle group deployed to the Afghan capital as part of the International Security Assistance Force.


Note that the word is that some of these will filter down to the Reserves...
 

George Wallace

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geo said:
Note that the word is that some of these will filter down to the Reserves...

15 M777 Howitzers don't go very far in the Regular Force.  How do you expect some to filter down to the Reserves?
 

geo

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BTW - the Reserve post wasn't my comment......
Another old warhorse passed it on to me today - t'was already there

When and where the 155s make it down the food chain is a subject of long term speculation
 

sjm

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Too many 105 rounds in stock to shelf all our light guns right now.  I just hope the LG1 isn't sent to the Militia Regiments.  It wouldn't surprise me though since most of the braintrust that came up with the LG1 are still in a holding pattern somewhere here at the puzzle palace.

Once the 105 mm stock runs out it would be cheaper to have everyone go the "Blackjack" if for no other reason than a 155 rd costs less than a 105 rd. Training everyone on one gun is much more cost effective.

All our 105s are still limited to 11 km,  that is if you want to hit the target.
 

geo

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UBIQUE
Engineers: everywhere
Arty; All over the place
(IMHO)

Chimo!
 

GENOMS Soilder

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I just got trained on the C3 105mm and was wondering what the weight of the 155mm projectile is,
and is the 155mm round set up in the same way as the 105mm-Fuze+Projectile+Charge bags+Casing=complete round, and if thats true then won't loading the round be a  heavy bitch?

15eh? I say if we get them, then get more so that us Reservist don't lose our C3s.
 

RCA

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I can't see 155 coming down to the Reserves. No requirement. Training on the C3 and converting during deployment training isn't a strech. As for Shilo and hunting season, the land is actually leased from the provincial gov't and hunting season was part of the provisions. They may cut days off beginning and end for some training, but not much.
 

CBH99

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Reserves won't lose their C3's, there isn't anything else to train on except for if all the arty units went to the 81.

My question is, though:  Are the C3's just used for training purposes?  I can't see us deploying C3 guns anywhere, ever - which leaves me to believe the only reason we have them is for training purposes.

The reason I say this, is - and correct me if I'm wrong (Which you'll all do anyway) - we deploy the LG-1 guns first, due to their lighter weight and easier deployability/mobility, right?  We did this in Kabul.  Now, in the foreseeable future, we'll never deploy more than a few guns at a time overseas -- therefore, the C3's would just be used here at home to train on.  Maybe I'm totally wrong, just how it looks to me.
 

Gunner

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sjm said:
Too many 105 rounds in stock to shelf all our light guns right now.   I just hope the LG1 isn't sent to the Militia Regiments.   It wouldn't surprise me though since most of the braintrust that came up with the LG1 are still in a holding pattern somewhere here at the puzzle palace.

Once the 105 mm stock runs out it would be cheaper to have everyone go the "Blackjack" if for no other reason than a 155 rd costs less than a 105 rd. Training everyone on one gun is much more cost effective.

All our 105s are still limited to 11 km,   that is if you want to hit the target.

You lost me when you stated that a 155 is cheaper than a 105 round.  I have to admit that I haven't worked in resources for a number of years but I still have to question this comment from you.  The rest of your points are meaningless.
 

sjm

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Due to the proliferation of the basic 155 mm delivery system (read gun) the HE projectile costs less than the 105 mm HE round.  This is in part due to the lack of the brass casing but mostly due to quantity produced for gloabal consumption.

Some will say that the LG1 firing the ERBB bullet can reach ranges of up to 18.5 km, you have to consider the 500m PeR before putting that anywhere near civies or friendly troops.

And like 99.9% of the posts on this site, meaningless works for me.  It's those 0.1% of the posts that keep me coming back, cause it's definitely not the coffee.
 

Bomber

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Streamlining into one weapon system would be a wonderful thing.  Training for every gunner would be significantly cheaper and easier.  No more TFT's for C1's, C3's, 81mm, and M109's, just one gun system.  Being able to slot a reservist into the arty portion of a BG or TF, or whatever is going over would be better for the reserves as it is a system they already know and love, and better for the regs as they get people that have already mastered a piece of kit and don't need to waste time training.  Every arty trade would benefit from this more common training system.  For Genom, the 155 round is 98 pounds, plus or minus a square, and there is no casing, propellant is loaded after the round is seated in the bore, and the primer is placed in last.  An interesting thing for the M777 (Blackjack) is that the number one fires the gun.  I also figure that the reason the LG1 goes overseas is because the reg force uses the LG1, you can't mix guns without headaches, and it would be a headache to have a battery of LG1's and one C3 attached to the side of the gun line.  It just makes more sense to send the LG1's, as the majority of the gunners going over are trained on it, weapons guys are more familiar with it, and the reg force QM would have all the parts to support it, that being said, if the C3 were deployed as the gun pf a full battery, I don;t think there would be any difference in the use of it, and people depending on it at the sharp end would not know the difference, as the fire would still come as soon as they needed it.
 

RCA

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First of all (unless there has been major changes in the system) a 155 costs more then a 105  and that is before you add the fuze, propellent and primer.

Once a gunner is trained on a gun (at one time not long ago all were on a 105 C1) then coveting to M109, LG1, etc was not a hardship and after a few days, with a good #1, would be proficient as a det mbr.

C3 could be deployed but I don't forsee that either. LG1 can be airmobile and the 155, a more precise punch.
 

sjm

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I stand (or rather sit) corrected, a quick perusal of the CGCM pegs 155 mm HE less fuze @ $681.76 while the 105 mm also less fuze costs us a mere $425.04.

These are, however, the highly inflated SNC prices that we have to live with north of the border.  Not what one would pay at Ft Drum should one decide to get adventurous. (If purchased at the gate as you roll onto the ground the 155mm M107 costs $180 US while the 105mm C444 is $121 US)
 

Matt_Ubbing

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From what I know, a 105 is a medium artillery piece. but this new gun, A battery is going down to california to learn about it. Then from what I hear they will deploy them on that big excercise 1 CMBG is going on in WAINWRIGHT. so there's a lot of range time. and I hear these things can have like GPS guided ammunition. All my sources are from A battery. I spent a lot of time with some people from A battery. and the mass of booklets roaming around the barracks in Shilo. And there are a full gun dets worth of reservists from my regiment going on tour with the battery as far as i know. From what I hear the LG1 is slow into action, and that big base plate on the bottom of it gets frozen to the ground and breaks off (often!?!?!?) either way. I'm glad our government is investing in artillery. That leaves us gunners a good future. UBIQUE; QUO FAS ET GLORIA DUCUNT
 

Gunnerlove

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The costs from SNC also include the maint costs of larger manufacturing capability. We could buy cheaper from the US but if there was ever a shortage we as a foreign nation would be first to have our allotment redirected, just like in the last few world wars.

If we were to buy more ammo the unit price would drop.
 

Old Sweat

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At the risk of being called a shameless name dropper, I ran into the Director of Artillery yesterday and raised the matter by suggesting that I hoped the next guns we bought would have barrels immune to cracking. After I regained consciousness, he told me that our M777s are on the production line now along with a few other details that I am not comfortable discussing on this means.
 

horsegunner353

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Wow, some really good points here!  Thought I'd add my two cents.

It's important that we maintain some sort of capability with both the 81, 105 and 155 in order to make sure that we can achieve the "echeloning" of fires that seems to be the flavour of the day.  Each of these systems have specific strengths and weaknesses which are compensated for by the others.

It's important, also, that we don't succumb to "mission creep".  Ever since we tramped off for Op APOLLO, the age of "light forces" has dawned again, thus the belief by some that 105 or 81 are all we need.  As Op ATHENA has evolved, however, we can see that we will actually be able to deploy larger pieces of equipment into theatre and we don't need to focus solely on light ops. 

The M777 is an interesting piece of kit, but lets focus on what's really important... the shell.  The 155 shell is THE standard artillery round for NATO.  In addition, while there have been advances in 81 and 105 PGM the 155 is really the only viable canon-launched guided projectile that exists, therefore those who cite the smaller kill radius of a 105 as more likely to avert collateral damage, the guided 155 is much more precise.  In addition, it's classic strengths still hold true today... it has a longer range, greater kill radius and is much more flexible due to the wider array of ammo natures available, specifically DPICM.

I've had the the opportunity to conduct Division and Brigade level JCATS exercises on the Army Ops Course and the Artillery Ops Course, and while I acknowledge that computer war isn't real war, the LG1's or any 105 just couldn't keep up with the pace of the battle.  On Arty Ops the Arty Manoeuvre Plan went out the window the second our lead elms crossed the LD.  All AMAs became irrelevant and every mission was a hip shoot or quick action as the guns had to be constantly moving just to be able to engage the forward edge of friendly forces and throughout the depth of the enemy defenses.

That being said, and at the risk of going on, and on... the 105 will still be the weapon of choice for certain locations, situations and tactical scenarios.
 

JackD

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Hi! pardon me for butting in but this purchase of 15 howitzers -  is this an initial number or is 15 the total number to be purchased?  Is there any word on prime movers and ammunition vehicles?
 
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