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New Compulsory Retirement - 60 years

Sundborg

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Well that's cool in a way.  Now I can stay in the forces for 42 years :p
 

Gunnar

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Gives the Ottawa bureaucrats something to do until they are forced out of their positions by a competent government.  Since they have ample time at present, they may as well extend the retirement age...
 

casing

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The increase in retirement age is for military members, not government bureaucrats.  Or am I missing some sort of ironic sarcasm here?

???
 

Inch

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Casing said:
Effective July 1, 2004 the mandatory compulsory retirement age is increased to 60.   Didn't see anything mentioned about a change in required pension service.   So, a good thing!

There are changes coming to the pension as well as the Terms of Service.  I'm not sure what changes are in store for the pension but in the new terms of service you'll be required to do 25 yrs vice 20 to get an undiminished pension.  It's still 2% per year so you'll get a 50% pension, you just have to do 25 years to be eligible for it.  This will affect anyone not on an Intermediate Engagement (IE).  The changes are coming into effect Jan 1st 2005, and anyone on a 20 year IE will have the option to change over to the 25yr IE within 1 year after the changes take effect.  For pers on their second BE, or on an SE or SSE (those that are on them know what I'm talking about), they've authorized the Unit COs to offer early IE's. Normally an IE is offered in the 2nd last year of an SSE, SE and second BE, they're now permitted to offer the IE up to 4 years prior to the end of the contract.

So to sum it up, for the newbies and guys that don't qualify for the IE offer, it's going to be 25yrs before you can get a pension.  For guys that sign the IE offered to them, you'll have the choice of doing 20 or 25 yrs.

Cheers
 

Lance Wiebe

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Casing, not to answer for Gunnar, but I think that most of our uniformed types in Ottawa are the bureaucrats he's talking about.
 

Infanteer

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I don't see it as a bad thing, since modern demographics means people aged 55-60 are more than capable of filling many occupational roles.  However, I am a little concerned that this may be a "band-aid" approach to covering up recruiting and retention problems.
 

portcullisguy

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There is talk that the gov't wants to raise the retirement age for the rest of the public service as well (excluding the RCMP).  Now that they've done it to the CF, it's only a matter of time before they do it to the rest of the federal workers.

This is a bad thing, since I already have to work 31 years in order to retire with a full pension, and soon they will change it to 36 or 41 years, depending on what they set the age to.

One of the things that attracts people to the public service is the earlier retirement age.  That, along with relative job security, are two compelling reasons (beyond the "call of duty" need that some feel, myself included) for remaining in the public employ.  It certainly isn't the pay and other benefits, which pale in comparison to other governments (provincial, municipal) and to the private sector.

Oh well!  Shoulda voted for someone other than Liberal!  Oops, I *did* vote for osmeone other than Liberal!  And I'm still getting screwed.
 

casing

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I have to agree with portcullisguy.  I believe that one of the reasons people choose the CF for a career is the possibility of retiring after 20 years of service.  If the changes go through as Inch suggests above, then quite a few people who enrolled under the assumption of 20 years are going to be very upset when they suddenly are told that an extra 5 years are necessary. 

It isn't the end all, be all for me, but my wife's support will likely wane somewhat when I tell her she'll have to put up with a couple of more relocations.  Considering we are 34 now, on the commencement of my Reg Force CF service, that is a big deal.  Ah well...  I can only hope that Inch is somewhat wrong and everyone in at the time of the change will be grandfathered.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Infanteer said:
However, I am a little concerned that this may be a "band-aid" approach to covering up recruiting and retention problems.

Not to be a smart-arse, but in all honesty - why else would they do it?  The good of their hearts?
 

Infanteer

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I think we are mixing up two different concepts here; raised retirement age and increase in time required for a pension.  Raising the time in for a pension makes it necessary for a person who enrolled out of highschool at 19 able to get out at 44 instead of 39, gaining an extra 10% increase in their pension as well.  Raising the manadatory age requirement is a seperate matter which allows people to retire at 60 rather than 55; either is likely to have served beyond the time required for full pension unless they enrolled past 35.

As for Michael's statement, I would hope that the age requirement was done in the spirit of recognition that modern standard of living has made people in their late 50's quite productive.  Often, the arbitrary line that delinates mandatory retirement often has the effect of canning people who still are willing and capable of executing their tasks.  I would hope this is what the policy change was enacted for, but I have a feeling that it is in the spirit of "Well, we don't have enough 19 year old recruits, so let's keep that fat corporal who drives the bus to Wainwright on for another 5 years...."
 

JasonH

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On a related note...

OTTAWA -- The Canadian Forces wants more bang for its buck from the people it hires and trains. Doug Lock, Defence Department spokesman, said the military has concluded it's not getting a full return on its investment when training soldiers and has launched a full blown review of its enrolment contracts to make up the shortfall.

Lock said the Forces want longer commitments than three years from many of those without a university degree.

"If we find the right people who have the right attitude and right commitment, then the theory is that they'll stay longer," he said.

The brass heading 100-plus military occupations have been ordered by month's end to hammer out how long each soldier must serve to cover the cost of their training.

The military shells out $80,000 to shape a recruit into a battle-ready infantry soldier over eight months of training.

To keep soldiers serving longer, the Canadian Forces is implementing a plan next year that requires soldiers work five more years -- or 25-years -- before they are eligible for pension.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/CalgarySun/News/2004/07/13/537622.html
 

Lance Wiebe

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I wonder if it is a two purpose plan?

The number one plan would be, as mentioned, to make up for the shortall in recruiting over the short term.

The number two plan, well, believe it or not, military pensions gets paid out of the DND budget.  Don't confuse this with Veteran Affairs!But this would also give DND less pension payouts over the short term, but bigger payouts over the long term.

Could this be how they plan on paying for the MGS, the new supply ships, and so on?

While I am not against the raising of the retirement age, I wonder how the 59 year old Sgt leading an Infantry section in an assault under NBCD conditions in August would feel about it?  There has to be some kind of common sense applied to this.  The combat arms are, really, more of a young mans game than one for grandpa's and grandma's.  But, the FCS tech and the IT techs and so on can easily work until 60.
 

Inch

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Casing said:
It isn't the end all, be all for me, but my wife's support will likely wane somewhat when I tell her she'll have to put up with a couple of more relocations.   Considering we are 34 now, on the commencement of my Reg Force CF service, that is a big deal.   Ah well...   I can only hope that Inch is somewhat wrong and everyone in at the time of the change will be grandfathered.

There is a grandfather clause built into the new TOS, the problem for the newbies is that you have to have signed an IE to be covered by the grandfather clause. That's why the big push was on for those of us that are eligible to sign the IE prior to the changes.  If I don't sign and just finish out my SSE, I'll be under the 25yr thing too if I decide to sign my IE in 2 years when I'd normally be eligible for it. I'll talk to the Sqn AdminO tomorrow to clarify but the question was brought up a couple times during the briefing.

The relocations aren't all that bad, in most cases you can stay in one spot for quite a few years, the DCO of 423 Sqn has been in Shearwater for 18 years.  It's all part of the new quality of life initiative that's rolling in now, happy soldiers stay in  ;D

Cheers
 

Scott

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I agree wholeheartedly with Lance, that this move is going to cover the CF's backside when it comes to retention and recruiting problems. But this is only a band-aid solution if these are in fact some of the reasons.

I do applaud the CF for letting their members work longer, many may want to stay but are forced out. I mean, if a 52 (I think he was that old) year old man can pass through PPCLI battleschool then we should at least look at upping the age by a little!

He was Reg Force was he not? It's been a while since the story came out.

Cheers!
 

Spr.Earl

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Infanteer said:
I don't see it as a bad thing, since modern demographics means people aged 55-60 are more than capable of filling many occupational roles.   However, I am a little concerned that this may be a "band-aid" approach to covering up recruiting and retention problems.
Infanteer,the way I see it is it's designed to keep those who have the experience to stay in and pass on that experience on to the new generation which I totaly agree with.
I don't kow if you remebr what happened when FRP was offered ?
We lost so many Men/Women with experiance that they were offered good bonus's to renlist.
All the course's in the world do not make a soldier but experience does!

I for one am going to inform my respective Unit that I wish to stay till 60.
Yes I may not be able for Op.'s but I can pass on my Knowledge!!
I learnt alot from our Korean Vet's in the Wack way back in 76,77,78 .
Just because your old in number's does not mean you are dead. :salute:
 

ZipperHead

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I think that this is more a part of the "social experiment" that the CF continues itself to be a part of. By undertaking these types of initiatives, we seem to be, IMO, diluting the strength of the Forces, rather than doing any to make it any more effective. As Lance mentioned, could you imagine (the average) 59 year old Sgt leading a section attack, or doing most battle related tasks. "Well, he won't have to do that, he can just teach." Well, once his walker gets bogged down whilst showing the young bucks how to do said section attack in the field, then what?!?  :'( We always seem to find a job for people that can't cut it. Can't load a HESH round in a Leopard on the move? we'll make you a driver. Can't lift a road wheel? We'll make you an Iltis driver. Can't drive because you lost your license for DUI? We'll make you a canteen guy..... and the list goes on.....

Where does it end? Ever hear of Universality of Service? As it is, we already have people who can't go to the field, on tour, on taskings because they are unfit physically and/or medically, and somebody else (ie. fit, non-adminstrative burdened, etc soldiers) have to take up the slack. Every unit has the "usual suspects" who couldn't find the closest training area or training center with a truckload of GPS' and all the maps in the world. They still get the same pay/benefits/career progression as the guys who do all the heavy lifting, and help create the promotion log-jam that almost all trades experience, without really contributing to the CF.

If anybody thinks that career progression is slow now, wait til you have to wait another 5 (or more) years for CWO's, MWO's, WO's, etc to retire...... If they think that it is going to help retention, I think they will actually find it will discourage people from joining (the 20 year pension sounded pretty good to me 16 years ago......) and will push out people because they don't want to see what becomes of the Forces after this latest fiasco in the making..... As it is, I am seeing less and less of the "lifers" (guys who stay in for more than 20 years) because of the BS that is coming down the pipeline. And too many guys who stay on seem to be the prime candidates for FRP (Forced Retirement Plan).

Sigh.....  Is it 2008 (or 2013 if I'm feeling particularly giddy if they offer me a 5 year CE) yet?????

Al
 

Spr.Earl

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Allen don't underestimate those aged in number's.
In WW2 many 50 yr old's trained those who whent over.

Age is just a number and remenber that,it's what in is the mind of the beholder. :salute:

I could teach you a few thing's which you have never been taught. ;)
 

Bert

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Not to be too cyncial, but I don't know how effective the 60 year old retirement age is. 
The member at 55 to 60 still has to pass medical and fitness standards for their age
category.  I was told by a Logistics Corporal in the Forces serving some time that from
the age of 30 to 55, keeping the fit and proper is managable.  From 55 to 60 everything
starts to fall apart.  Rising the retirment age may actually reduce the number of people
able to reach that age of 60 being medically and phgysically fit thus reduce the
government's need to pay out (full pension and benefits).  Just a thought but I don't
know how valid it is.
 

Scott

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Good point, Bert, didn't think of it that way.
 
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