New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Kirkhill]

The reality is Washington and Irving cant handle the work by design as Ian Mack has admitted was an error in their assumptions going into the NSS. The result is we have 3 yards to engage in the recapitalization of the RCN and CCG ships. All three will build ice capable ships even if Seaspan doesnt do the Dief. The other two yards havent distinguished themselves overly and Heddle is on its second or third chance as well. Theres been shenanigans building the type 26 too so seems like shipbuilding is something to keep an eye on especially when we keep doing this start and stop thing. Hopefully when all is said and done we will have 3 yards that can compete for government work or at least two

None of the yards, to my knowledge, had a current history of large vessel construction. Seaspan had a history of building "water tight hulls" if you want to include all the barges it has built. But none of the yards had any background in designing, building and assembling modules.

Curiously the Norwegian system seem to be to build hulls in Romania and outfitting them in Norway.

Permitting 10,000 tonne, 130 m vessels to be built in a couple of years for a quarter million CAD apiece - or there abouts. And maintaining a steady flow of business.

 

[Navy_Pete]

None of the yards, to my knowledge, had a current history of large vessel construction. Seaspan had a history of building "water tight hulls" if you want to include all the barges it has built. But none of the yards had any background in designing, building and assembling modules.

Curiously the Norwegian system seem to be to build hulls in Romania and outfitting them in Norway.

Permitting 10,000 tonne, 130 m vessels to be built in a couple of years for a quarter million CAD apiece - or there abouts. And maintaining a steady flow of business.

There is no way that dollar figure isn't an incredible low ball; $250k wouldn't even cover the steel for a 10,000 tonne ship, let alone the labour (even at a cheaper rate) or anything inside the steel hull.

Our cost reports are nuts because of all the things they include, but most governments costs don't report a fraction of real costs anyone would reasonably expect to be included in the ticket price.

I think Davie will do okay, but people are smoking dope if they don't expect similar schedule delays (which will increase costs) if they are going to try and do major yard upgrades, huge growth, a lot of buying and all the design work while not impacting ongoing and very substantial CPF DWPs, which are now exceeding 1M labour hours in repairs (for context the final ATH DWP was around 450k total hours, even with some required rework after the tow)

 

[dapaterson]

Had FELEX properly done structural work, the DWPs would be materially shorter.

Just saying...

 

[Kirkhill]

There is no way that dollar figure isn't an incredible low ball; $250k wouldn't even cover the steel for a 10,000 tonne ship, let alone the labour (even at a cheaper rate) or anything inside the steel hull.

Our cost reports are nuts because of all the things they include, but most governments costs don't report a fraction of real costs anyone would reasonably expect to be included in the ticket price.

I think Davie will do okay, but people are smoking dope if they don't expect similar schedule delays (which will increase costs) if they are going to try and do major yard upgrades, huge growth, a lot of buying and all the design work while not impacting ongoing and very substantial CPF DWPs, which are now exceeding 1M labour hours in repairs (for context the final ATH DWP was around 450k total hours, even with some required rework after the tow)

OOOOPS - 250 MCAD - NOT 250 KCAD. - But I am going to leave the commentary in place. Our pricing is still out of whack.



People keep telling me that.

They told me that after Svalbard was built. - 6375 tonnes, 575,000,000 NOK, 2000
They told me that again after the pair of Absalons were built. - 6300 tonnes, 2,500,000,000 DKK for the pair without weapons modules, 2004
They told me that again after the three Ivar Huitfeldts were built - 6645 tonnes, 325,000,000 USD per ship 2008
They told me that again after the three Knud Rasmussens were built. - 1720 tonnes, 513,000,000 DKK for the last ship, 2008
Now I am being told that after the Kronprins Haakon - 8000 tonnes, 1,400,000,000 NOK in 2013
And after the three current Jan Mayens - 9800 tonnes, 7,200,000,000 NOK for three in 2022

The vessel (Kronprins Haakon), with a price-tag of 1.4 billion Norwegian kroner (€156 million, or about $167 million), is financed by the government.

The 8,000-ton and 100-meter-long vessel has accommodation for up to 17 crew and 35 scientists.

Norway unveils most advanced research vessel to sail the Arctic Ocean - ArcticToday

A milestone was set this week for what will be the most advanced high-tech research vessel ever breaking the ice on the top of the globe, when the Kronprins Haakon was launched into a floating dock at the yard in Genoa, Italy. The remaining work that couldn’t be done inside the ship-hall due to...

www.arctictoday.com

Jan Mayen is the first of three new coastguard vessels being built by the shipbuilder Vard under a contract worth NOK7.2 billion (USD721 million), awarded in 2018.

With a length of 136 meters and a beam of 22 meters, ...

Displacement 9,800t​

Norwegian Coast Guard’s First Jan Mayen-class Offshore Patrol Vessel Nears Completion - MilitaryLeak.COM

First-of-class offshore patrol vessel (OPV) on order for the Norwegian Coast Guard Jan Mayen is progressing through its builder's trials and is expected to be

militaryleak.com

Jan Mayen-Class Vessels

The Jan Mayen-class (P6615 Project) vessels are being built by VARD Langsten shipyard in Norway for the Norwegian Coast Guard (Kystvakten).

www.naval-technology.com

Either Canada doesn't know how to cost the ships we are not building,
Or the Scandinavians don't know how to cost the ships they are building.

A suspicious mind might think that Canada wants to be seen to be eating up as much of their budget for as little output as possible
While the Scandinavians seem to be wanting to be seen as producing as much output for the smallest amount of their budget as possible.

A good buddy of mine, a scientist of international repute and often cited, once said "Tell me what number you want. We can prove it."

 

[Kirkhill]

6615 tonnes

Cost	CA$3.5 billion (initial design and build) CA$2.3 billion (for construction of six vessels);[1] CA$4.3 billion (2018 estimate);[2] CA$4.98 billion (2023 estimate for first six Navy ships) + CA$1.6 billion (2023 estimate for two Coast Guard variants)[3]

 

[Rainbow1910]

Either Canada doesn't know how to cost the ships we are not building,
Or the Scandinavians don't know how to cost the ships they are building.

A suspicious mind might think that Canada wants to be seen to be eating up as much of their budget for as little output as possible
While the Scandinavians seem to be wanting to be seen as producing as much output for the smallest amount of their budget as possible.

A good buddy of mine, a scientist of international repute and often cited, once said "Tell me what number you want. We can prove it."

Considering that Canada could be said as being over inclusive with how we calculate the various costs that we provide to government/the public, I don't think its much of a stretch to say that Norway could very likely be doing the exact opposite. A nation which is operating on a far tighter defense budget like Norway would benefit from obfuscating procurement costs, you look like you are getting more on less of a budget even though you are just evenly spreading the larger figure out or whatever measure of obfuscation you utilize. I think some people in Norway are more than aware of the cost of the ships they are building, they might just view it as more palatable to provide "adjusted" figures to other parties. I just think that comparison might be effectively impossible due to the major differences that could be at play between how nations show these costs. This is the issue which usually poisons these kind of easy cost comparisons between nations.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Again, Davie built - from scratch - the MV Cecon Pride in 2013-14. It's a 130 meters, 14,000 Gross tons vessel that is a multi-purpose offshore construction vessel that is extrmely complex and one off build. While that is ten years ago, it still made Davie the yard with the most contemporary construction - vs repair - work of all the yards before the N.S.S. They would have built the two further vessels of the same class right after had Cecon not cancelled because of its own financial problems further to their losing North Sea oil field construction and repair contract.

As for the Asterix, she wasn't a simple modification with add-ons. They stripped her down to just the hull and main engine, said engine then being completely overhauled and was rebuilt from the bottom up into a tanker - something she was not before "conversion", as she was a container ship.

And the $500MCAD loan Davie is getting from the Quebec government includes expansion of the yard because as it takes on work for the NSS, it continues and expects to continue to have a reasonable book of ship repairs to look after, so they need to rebuild and recommission the west side of the yard that has been mostly abandonned and idle for a long time for that repair work purpose.

 

[MTShaw]

Again, Davie built - from scratch - the MV Cecon Pride in 2013-14. It's a 130 meters, 14,000 Gross tons vessel that is a multi-purpose offshore construction vessel that is extrmely complex and one off build. While that is ten years ago, it still made Davie the yard with the most contemporary construction - vs repair - work of all the yards before the N.S.S. They would have built the two further vessels of the same class right after had Cecon not cancelled because of its own financial problems further to their losing North Sea oil field construction and repair contract.

As for the Asterix, she wasn't a simple modification with add-ons. They stripped her down to just the hull and main engine, said engine then being completely overhauled and was rebuilt from the bottom up into a tanker - something she was not before "conversion", as she was a container ship.

And the $500MCAD loan Davie is getting from the Quebec government includes expansion of the yard because as it takes on work for the NSS, it continues and expects to continue to have a reasonable book of ship repairs to look after, so they need to rebuild and recommission the west side of the yard that has been mostly abandonned and idle for a long time for that repair work purpose.

Everyone’s favourite shipyard.

I live in Vancouver, so Seaspan must be the best and has never got a little bit of graft.

I’m happy about 2 things: Seaspan is still getting a polar 2 (i think they are building 2 now and Seaspan has one on its books Polar Progress: Find out what’s happening behind the scenes in the development of Canada’s new Polar Icebreaker - Seaspan )and that we are completely refitting our navy and coast guard. All yards have problems and mistakes. As long as each yard gets its fair share…

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Not trying to say otherwise, MTS.

I was just pointing out that previous comments by some, to the effect that no yard had built ships from scratch for a long time when the NSS was sent in motion and that building Asterix was just a refit with some add-ons, were incorrect.

Davie will have teething problems like everybody else.

As for Seaspan and Davie getting Polar 2's, I am glad that the Coast Guard is getting two, so both can be replaced and Terry Fox won't have to get as old as poor Louis before retiring.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Everyone’s favourite shipyard.

I live in Vancouver, so Seaspan must be the best and has never got a little bit of graft.

I’m happy about 2 things: Seaspan is still getting a polar 2 (i think they are building 2 now and Seaspan has one on its books Polar Progress: Find out what’s happening behind the scenes in the development of Canada’s new Polar Icebreaker - Seaspan )and that we are completely refitting our navy and coast guard. All yards have problems and mistakes. As long as each yard gets its fair share…

There is only 1 yard in Canada that should never see a federal dollar again, unless it's under new ownership and improves is quality IMHO.

But I also think we should probably be building our ships off shore where quality and price are better.

 

[KevinB]

There is only 1 yard in Canada that should never see a federal dollar again, unless it's under new ownership and improves is quality IMHO.

But I also think we should probably be building our ships off shore where quality and price are better.

Price is what it is for national builds, the reason that NSS was created was to ensure the ability of Canada to create ships and not be totally beholden to others.

Quality; that’s on the CoG/DND/CAF to ensure that they hold the builders to the requirements.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

All I can say as I stare at the fresh and clean ALSTOM sign outside the factory near my house, the 100s of vehicles again filling up the parking lot and a significant improvement in quality work and actual output from the factory, in contrast to the severe mismanagement it endured under Bombardier.....

We need more Inocea backed Davie Shipbuilding and less Corrupt Canadian Cronyism. Bring actual business people in and show us how it's supposed to be done

 

[FSTO]

^^
The way Canada is spending billions for green tech to get our carbon footprint down, wouldn't that money be better spent to get High Speed and High Frequency Rail up and running? Get Nuclear power on the grid and run them as electric and get folks off of planes would be much better ROI than the cluster we currently have going on.

And yes I mean getting Rail back online on the prairies, BC, and the Atlantic coast, not just Quebec City to Windsor.

 

[Kirkhill]

Considering that Canada could be said as being over inclusive with how we calculate the various costs that we provide to government/the public, I don't think its much of a stretch to say that Norway could very likely be doing the exact opposite. A nation which is operating on a far tighter defense budget like Norway would benefit from obfuscating procurement costs, you look like you are getting more on less of a budget even though you are just evenly spreading the larger figure out or whatever measure of obfuscation you utilize. I think some people in Norway are more than aware of the cost of the ships they are building, they might just view it as more palatable to provide "adjusted" figures to other parties. I just think that comparison might be effectively impossible due to the major differences that could be at play between how nations show these costs. This is the issue which usually poisons these kind of easy cost comparisons between nations.

Not wrong. I think we agree on the point. The numbers generated for public consumption by and large serve political needs. Which, in my opinion, says a lot about the Canadian position on defence.

Spend money at home.
Keep Canadians employed.
Minimize capability so we can't be asked to do too much
Inflate spending as much as possible to get as close as possible to what the allies and want us to do.

Peace! Out!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Germans = "Lets build a frigate that lists all the time" Also subs for export with serious issues needing correcting

SK = "Naval Tankers that are unsafe to put to sea"

Scotland =
Ferguson shipyard, which had hoped to take part in the build of new frigates but was unable to due to issues during the build of two ferries, has announced a further delay to the ferries.
It is understood that anywhere between 400 and 900 cables are to be stripped out on ‘Hull 801’ and ‘Hull 802’, some more than 100 metres long.

MV Glen Sannox (referred to as Hull 801) and the unnamed Hull 802 were supposed to be in service 2018 and 2019 respectively but are both are now hoped to enter service around 2023. In update from Ferguson Marine on hulls 801 and 802, Tim Hair said:

“I regret to advise you that a problem has recently emerged with the build of 801 which I thought I should immediately bring to your attention.

Each of the ferries under construction at Ferguson relies on a complex network of cables, requiring the installation of over 9800 individual cables with a total length of 243km. Approximately 15% of these (Legacy Cables) were installed on 801 under the control of Ferguson Marine Engineering Limited (FMEL) prior to its Administration in August 2019. None of the Legacy Cables were installed after the Scottish Government took control of the yard. It has recently emerged that a large proportion of the Legacy Cables have not been installed in line with the engineering information held by FMEL, leaving the free ends too short to connect them to the equipment.”

 

[Navy_Pete]

Had FELEX properly done structural work, the DWPs would be materially shorter.

Just saying...

Or pipe work, or anything else on the unsexy mechanical side.

We're playing catchup on 30 years of 'condition based' maintenance where we didnt want to poke at it too much for the conditioned based assessments, so now back to the old style 'refit' where we have to do a lot of just straight replacement.

The LOE is astounding though, and doesn't matter how much money you throw at it there is a limit of what work you can do at the same time, so that's why they are stretching out so long.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yes the CCG Lauier has been tied up at VDC for months doing refit, on top of the drydock work that's be done to her recently as well. All the CCG vessels out here have been getting a more extensive than usual refits. We see how many get out to do the summer/arctic taskings.

 

[MTShaw]

All I can say as I stare at the fresh and clean ALSTOM sign outside the factory near my house, the 100s of vehicles again filling up the parking lot and a significant improvement in quality work and actual output from the factory, in contrast to the severe mismanagement it endured under Bombardier.....

We need more Inocea backed Davie Shipbuilding and less Corrupt Canadian Cronyism. Bring actual business people in and show us how it's supposed to be done

I wouldn’t be to bothered if Damen bought Seaspan. Though I don’t think tha the Washington Companies are trying to rip off Canadians.

 

[Spencer100]

^^
The way Canada is spending billions for green tech to get our carbon footprint down, wouldn't that money be better spent to get High Speed and High Frequency Rail up and running? Get Nuclear power on the grid and run them as electric and get folks off of planes would be much better ROI than the cluster we currently have going on.

And yes I mean getting Rail back online on the prairies, BC, and the Atlantic coast, not just Quebec City to Windsor.

North America has High speed! Its called an Airplane. High Speed passenger rail in the Canadian context is just dumb.

Billions and billions in very expensive fixed infrastructure costs. Billions in high operating costs. Never to be profitable even on an operating accounting basis.

I would have you research the China high speed rail problem.....its going to kill them, well the local governments budgets and the long term debit pictures that built them. Even with 1.4 billion people the trains are half empty even after with the COVID measured lifted.

Plus governments are going all in on electric vehicle happy shiny future.....Who is going to use node to node rail when you can jump in the auto uber BEV and go point to point? Say in 10 years I want to go Windsor to Mississauga.....Rail Windsor to Toronto then back on GO rail or bus to Mississauga taxi to final stop. Or use mobile phone to order self driving Tesla to my door then deliver to final stop. Which do you do?

If you believe is this green happy shiny future you should be spending all your infrastructure money on smart roads.

I would not spend a dime on passenger rail in Canada outside of Urban transport, Subways and GO etc.

(now I really don't believe the auto driving car is going to work anytime soon but the The masters of the Universe(TM) do...)

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Or pipe work, or anything else on the unsexy mechanical side.

We're playing catchup on 30 years of 'condition based' maintenance where we didnt want to poke at it too much for the conditioned based assessments, so now back to the old style 'refit' where we have to do a lot of just straight replacement.

The LOE is astounding though, and doesn't matter how much money you throw at it there is a limit of what work you can do at the same time, so that's why they are stretching out so long.

I heard the amount of labour hours going into TOR’s refit and almost fell over…