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New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

Underway

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suffolkowner said:
For sure although I think the one ship was supposed to be done before Covid. My son is pricing a building out in steel right now partially because the price of wood is 2.5x more, apparently due to the mills shutting down because they thought there would be no demand(?) I'm not sure if that's an Ontario thing or what but it shows the extent of the impact

I can't speak to the mills shutting down but wood went into super high demand as all those people who were going to spend money on holidays spent it on home reno's instead (guilty as charged).  The wood prices are crazy and the wood itself in the yards is still wet, hasn't been dried properly after pressure treating.  Garbage stuff.  So I set up a jury rigged drying shed (read tarp over stacked wood with enough room for airflow).

As for supply lines there are plenty of things that are on backorder.  You can't get a modem for wifi, certain chemicals are in short supply, and the list goes on.  And of course the manufacturing base had to adjust their processes to account for social distancing etc... which effects efficiency.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Even before Covid, the pressure treated wood they were trying to sell was garbage, knots everywhere and already badly twisted in the yard. You could not use it to build a deck or a shed.
 

Cloud Cover

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All 7 mills in North Okanagan are running at full capacity. That includes the 3 that were scheduled to close.  The problem is logs- they are shipping way too many raw logs to China and the US mills.
 

daftandbarmy

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Meanwhile, on the west coast:

Last of three new coast guard vessels handed over in Victoria

Seaspan Shipyards officially handed over CCGS John Cabot — the last of three offshore fisheries science vessels the shipyard has built — to the Canadian Coast Guard in Victoria on Friday.

The vessel, designed specifically for the coast guard and scientists from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, joins CCGS Capt. Jacques Cartier and CCGS Sir John Franklin, which are already in service.

https://www.timescolonist.com/business/last-of-three-new-coast-guard-vessels-handed-over-in-victoria-1.24218579
 

Navy_Pete

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MilEME09 said:
Yes build here  even though our order books are full for 10 years, but the coast guard can wait right?

We are at max capacity pretty much, any additional vessels should go off shore. I am sure south Korea could build us a sizable ice breaker fleet at a good price before a single Canadian one.

Canada has had a 'Build in Canada' shipbuilding policy in place since the 1960s with a process to go offshore if certain conditions are met. If we have a yard with the facilities to build something, we generally need to at least look at trying to build it here first. When 30-40% of all wages paid out to a Canadian yard go right back to the GoC, it's pretty hard to make the economic argument, as no foreign yard will want to touch the economic offsets for what is a relatively small project. An open bid with no IRBs or anything else would be the only true comparison, but that's a political hand grenade that no one will touch. Even without those clauses, you would be able to get some Canadian spinoffs and calculate that for bonus points, but those big S. Korean yards probably won't touch anything that isn't standard commercial terms as their order books are full and it costs money to put together a bid.

Given the amount of inter-departmental BS happening, and the general lack of political will for longterm projects, surprised the NSS is still rolling along, but probably has enough momentum it's not going to stop. For some projects (like the high speed ferry), makes total sense to go offhore as there isn't a Canadian yard capable of handling a ship that size, but for something like the Polar class icebreaker that was already part of the NSS bid, can't see that being done outside Canada.
 

Colin Parkinson

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The biggest problem with the NSS, is it was started 20 years to late, so we have yet another panic situation where the hulls won't let the politicians delay any longer. We almost lost an icebreaker a couple of years ago to corrosion and wear.
 

Navy_Pete

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Colin P said:
The biggest problem with the NSS, is it was started 20 years to late, so we have yet another panic situation where the hulls won't let the politicians delay any longer. We almost lost an icebreaker a couple of years ago to corrosion and wear.

Fully agree, but it did take 10-15 years to get enough support to get approved.

'Urgent operational requirements' can lead to interim fixes, or additional funding for unforeseen major repairs, but generally aren't a good enough reason on their own for a waiver from the 'Build in Canada' policy. JSS is a good example, as that project has been in the works in some form or another since the late 80s, and we could have gotten them built abroad at any time in the last 20 years no problem with a waiver and some other policy coverage on the different contracting terms and other related project details. Things like outsourcing our QC would be a big one, but the whole procurement/selection process for all the bits and bobs inside the hull would be quite different on standard commercial terms.

Personally think building outside of Canada would come with it's own big set of challenges (aside from politics), but agree a new imperfect ship would probably still be better then no ship, or keeping an old one limping along safely. But I think if we do build outside the country, we'll probably try and enforce all kinds of insane IRB equivalencies and make them go with equipment bids (as opposed to just let the shipyard select equipment to meet the spec using known suppliers they have good relationships with) so we would never get the actual benefits of going with an established yard (with an established supply chain) but have the drawbacks of trying to remotely manage something being built on the other side of the planet by a company with no real allegiance. We may have issues with the exisiting NSS yards having some political leverage, but not sure a foreign yard where we are just a demanding customer would be a better relationship.
 

YZT580

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wasn't Irving saying that they needed more work to avoid layoffs in between the AOP and the frigate?  I know for a fact that Heddle could start cutting steel by early spring and produce modules at each of their yards with assembly in St. Catharines or, under license with assembly in Vancouver provided they had the design.  Wouldn't interfere with the schedule at all: just provide long term and skilled jobs in another province.  So buy an off  the shelf design from one of the Baltic companies limit your changes to electrical instead of trying to Canadianize everything and just get it done.   
 

MilEME09

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YZT580 said:
wasn't Irving saying that they needed more work to avoid layoffs in between the AOR and the frigate?  I know for a fact that Heddle could start cutting steel by early spring and produce modules at each of their yards with assembly in St. Catharines or, under license with assembly in Vancouver provided they had the design.  Wouldn't interfere with the schedule at all: just provide long term and skilled jobs in another province.  So buy an off  the shelf design from one of the Baltic companies limit your changes to electrical instead of trying to Canadianize everything and just get it done. 

Maybe to avoid lay offs lets bump up the Type 26/CSC schedule?
 

YZT580

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can do both.  Better long term results than just giving cash away as we are doing now.
 

Uzlu

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YZT580 said:
wasn't Irving saying that they needed more work to avoid layoffs in between the AOR and the frigate?
Yes.  That is why Irving is going to build an additional two modified Harry DeWolfs after the first six Harry DeWolfs.  I think you wanted to write AOPS.
 

Navy_Pete

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YZT580 said:
wasn't Irving saying that they needed more work to avoid layoffs in between the AOP and the frigate?  I know for a fact that Heddle could start cutting steel by early spring and produce modules at each of their yards with assembly in St. Catharines or, under license with assembly in Vancouver provided they had the design.  Wouldn't interfere with the schedule at all: just provide long term and skilled jobs in another province.  So buy an off  the shelf design from one of the Baltic companies limit your changes to electrical instead of trying to Canadianize everything and just get it done. 

Lead time in a lot of equipment is measured in years, and you still need to do up a production design specific to the yard equipment (specifically available tonnage of the cranes and working area). You also usually have to update the design to reflect changes to SOLAS and class society rules. If it was just as easy as licensing a design and building it then none of the three shipyards would be behind schedule.
 

Harris

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YZT580 said:
wasn't Irving saying that they needed more work to avoid layoffs in between the AOP and the frigate?  I know for a fact that Heddle could start cutting steel by early spring and produce modules at each of their yards with assembly in St. Catharines or, under license with assembly in Vancouver provided they had the design.  Wouldn't interfere with the schedule at all: just provide long term and skilled jobs in another province.  So buy an off  the shelf design from one of the Baltic companies limit your changes to electrical instead of trying to Canadianize everything and just get it done. 

But nothing is ever off-the-shelf.  For example Canada has different health and safety requirements so there has to be some modifications to any item of this size and scope.  It's the amount that makes the difference.
 

YZT580

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granted but the same design revisions will be required whether built here or elsewhere.  Hang it out and have a look, it won't delay anything.  The facilities for a lake-built breaker are available right on the lakes and have been underused for the last decade or more: as said earlier, provide the design and they can start.  If they were building a fleet then there would be a need for establishing an assembly line style facility but this is a one off.
 

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MilEME09 said:
Maybe to avoid lay offs lets bump up the Type 26/CSC schedule?

Please no.  I don't mind the random extra AOPS as their layoff protection.  CSC needs to be designed before the build.  Avoids the initial AOPS and JSS problems where the yard is building AND designing at the same time.  So many headaches...
 

MilEME09

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Colin P said:
Well Irving can do what the yards in BC did, go look for international work.

That would mean they would have to be competitive on the world stage
 
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