• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Navy to let women sail on submarines

cameron

Full Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Thanks for the perspectives guys, this is the kind of helpful discussion I was trying to get at.
 

Springroll

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
0
Points
0
HFXCrow said:
Springroll are you going to volunteer for Submarine service?

Originally, I was definitely considering it in the future but now its not really a volunteer situation.
I got my posting msg today...to subs...lol
I was a little scared at first, but now I am getting excited and look forward to the challenge.

The only question i am wondering know, is about the training. I know my screening will need to be done, but once that is all clear, then what? I have heard a few different things as far as the length of the training and such.

edited to change know to now
 

PPCLI Guy

Army.ca Fixture
Donor
Reaction score
1,054
Points
1,040
284_226 said:
Save the condescending remarks about giving my head a shake - or at least save them for someone who doesn't have more TI than you do.  The only difference between when I joined and now is that people have gotten much more skilled at hiding their racism.  It's still out there.

edit:  added as well as other prohibited forms of discrimination to first para.

Ok - I will bite.  I have more TI than you do (by any measure - feel free to PM me for bona fides) - and you do need to give your head a shake.  Colour, race, creed, sexual orientation - none of it matters.  All I care about is whether Pte-Maj Snuffy can do their job.
 

RobJackson28

Guest
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Correct: "race", colour, what-have-you shouldn't matter, regardless, part of the screening process for recruitment involves questions pertaining to equality. How does addressing issues of equality, especially in regards to recruitment, mean anything other than that?

Required or not, it's important for the CF to bring up equality to ensure individual members do not possess prejudice which would hinder the ability of that individual (and those around them) to do their job.
 

284_226

Banned
Banned
Reaction score
0
Points
0
PPCLI Guy said:
Ok - I will bite.  I have more TI than you do (by any measure - feel free to PM me for bona fides) - and you do need to give your head a shake.  Colour, race, creed, sexual orientation - none of it matters.  All I care about is whether Pte-Maj Snuffy can do their job.

You'll notice I've highlighted part of your post.  Feel free to speak for yourself, but are you really qualified to speak for the entire CF?

Put another way - you won't mind providing me with proof that there were no incidents of racial or other form of prohibited discrimination in the last year in the CF?

Hint:  I'm aware of one instance at my own unit.

I'm finding it very hard to believe that there are still this many CF members that have their heads in the sand regarding various forms of discrimination in the CF.

Take a look at the Canadian Forces Diversity Climate Survey - particularly the slides dealing with neosexism and neoracism.  Also note slide 36, which reports that only 10.6% of the survey respondents were of the opinion that discrimination is no longer an issue, or that there are other more important concerns.

As someone else stated, I believe you'd have been more accurate stating "Colour, race, creed, sexual orientation - none of it matters is supposed to matter."

edit: to add "neosexism and".
 
A

aesop081

Guest
284_226,

I just had a thought. Its career manager season. I'm guessing you didnt get the news you wanted. Must have been a "visible minority" thing eh ?
 

Franko

Army.ca Fixture
Staff member
Directing Staff
Reaction score
2
Points
0
284_226 said:
I'm finding it very hard to believe that there are still this many CF members that have their heads in the sand regarding various forms of discrimination in the CF.

No. The thing is too many of us are busy going on tour and doing our job to care about this topic. Some people, it would seem anyways, have too much time on their hands.

My driver and and a few others in my troop are of a visible minority and all I care about is their well being and their performance.

Regards
 

armyvern

Army.ca Myth
Mentor
Reaction score
34
Points
530
He didn't say there was none. There's asshats everywhere -- it sure as fuck doesn't mean the system condones it or encourages it and harbours it.

This thread kills me.

Being a female and all who did her time digging her trenchs at the beginning of "gender equality" 20 years ago. I quite look forward to doing it again too.

I have yet, that's right, YET, to experience any form of biasness against me or sexual harassment whatever because of my sex.

Because I do my f'n job the best that I can do it. I don't play the "female card" -- I don't get called on it.

I DO know some women that have "claimed" that their lack of progression at the pace THEY thought it should be who claimed it was because of their "being a female" ... I can assure you though that it was not --- it was because they were bags of shit who sat back and watched the men and the women who DID their jobs DOING their jobs.

When a chick makes a comment that "I can't go drain the air tanks under the truck because my uniform and hair will get dirty" (immediately after coming in from the field at that!!) then writes up a grievance that she got a shitty PER (exactly what she deserved) because she "was a female" who was being discriminated against because "females were just beginning to do these things", she's got problems. The problem wasn't with the men or the CF -- it was with her.

Just because they claim it --- doesn't make it true and factual. Ergo her loss on that grievance. If that's the case, why didn't the other women who DID do the job (ALL the job) get shitty write-ups too? But, my gawd she was good at screaming it and claiming it to everyone who'd listen every time she got the chance. Sad part is, some who were NOT there with us actually believed her at one point. I'm glad that got sorted out. We're still in and she's out. Good friggin' riddance to her to. And I'd say the exact same about anyone else who didn't do the damn job, regardless of race, coulour, religion etc.
 

Strike

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
0
Points
0
284_226,

I'm not saying that this doesn't exist, but I really don't care.  What matters to me is what is done to correct the situation.  Anyone can complain and point out faults, but what good does that do?
 

the 48th regulator

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
0
Points
410
cameron said:
As someone pursuing graduate studies in history and anthropology I too would be interested in reading any replies to springroll's questions.  As a black man with an interest in the CF and considering perhaps joining at some point in the future, I would also like to hear about the experiences of any visible minorities serving in the CF and who are army.ca members or guests.

Hi Cameron,

One of the first Canadians to die in Afghanistan was a friend and former member of my regiment.  He went regular force, and became a member of the PPCLI.  He went as far to become a paratrooper with them.

I can assure you, when he served with me in the 48th, never did we have to worry about racism.

We were a regiment from Toronto, so you can imagine the multitudes of ethinicity that made up the regiment.  But we were all highlanders, and we all wore the kilt and the Falcon.

CplDyer.gif

Words of remembrance written by Corporal Di Capua while serving in Afghanistan

Dileas Gu Brath Dyer!

tess
 

284_226

Banned
Banned
Reaction score
0
Points
0
CDN Aviator said:
284_226,

I just had a thought. Its career manager season. I'm guessing you didnt get the news you wanted. Must have been a "visible minority" thing eh ?

Here's a thought for you.

I'm a heterosexual white male Protestant, 4th generation Canadian.  Is there a reason why you think I'm making this up, instead of reading the results of the Canadian Forces' own studies into the subject? 

Let me guess - you and RBD were part of the 10.6%, right?

Recce By Death said:
No. The thing is too many of us are busy going on tour and doing our job to care about this topic. Some people, it would seem anyways, have too much time on their hands.

That looks remarkably like the comment that was made on the aforementioned study - "In this day and age (in Canada) I do not believe there is a major factor with discrimination due to the programs and discrimination courses we have available to us".

Quite clearly, the survey results point to the need for continuing the various programs and courses.

My driver and and a few others in my troop are of a visible minority and all I care about is their well being and their performance.

ArmyVern said:
I have yet, that's right, YET, to experience any form of biasness against me or sexual harassment whatever because of my sex.

Ah, there's that "I" again.  And why is it that when confronted with the issue of bigotry, the first thing that usually comes out of people's mouths is "I'm not a bigot, I have friends who are black/Asian/gay/French/insert name of other minority here"?  You do realize that means nothing, right?

ArmyVern said:
He didn't say there was none. There's asshats everywhere -- it sure as frig doesn't mean the system condones it or encourages it and harbours it.

Huh?  We have several people in this very thread who aren't even acknowledging it as an issue!  (Which just happens to be one of the problems that the survey suggests needs attention).

 

Franko

Army.ca Fixture
Staff member
Directing Staff
Reaction score
2
Points
0
284_226 said:
Let me guess - you and RBD were part of the 10.6%, right?

WTF are you talking about?

If you're trolling.....

Regards
 

George Wallace

Army.ca Dinosaur
Reaction score
4
Points
410
284_226 said:
Here's a thought for you.

I'm a heterosexual white male Protestant, 4th generation Canadian.  Is there a reason why you think I'm making this up, instead of reading the results of the Canadian Forces' own studies into the subject? 

Let me guess - you and RBD were part of the 10.6%, right?

That looks remarkably like the comment that was made on the aforementioned study - "In this day and age (in Canada) I do not believe there is a major factor with discrimination due to the programs and discrimination courses we have available to us".

Quite clearly, the survey results point to the need for continuing the various programs and courses.

Ah, there's that "I" again.  And why is it that when confronted with the issue of bigotry, the first thing that usually comes out of people's mouths is "I'm not a bigot, I have friends who are black/Asian/gay/French/insert name of other minority here"?  You do realize that means nothing, right?

Huh?  We have several people in this very thread who aren't even acknowledging it as an issue!  (Which just happens to be one of the problems that the survey suggests needs attention).

Let's stop being a complete idiot. 

You have just accused a woman who stated that she personally has never seen discrimination against her in all her times in Service as being unqualified to speak on the subject.

You have misinterpreted a statement that you posted from a report.

[Edited to allow response from mbr.]
 

1feral1

Banned
Banned
Reaction score
0
Points
0
MCG said:
Navy to let women sail on submarines
Last all-male bastion of Canadian Forces
to be integrated on new vessels next year
KEVIN COX AND JEFF SALLOT

Friday, March 9, 2001


HALIFAX and OTTAWA -- Master Seaman Sophie MacArthur got her first look at the cramped quarters and complicated technology inside Canada‘s lone operating submarine yesterday -- and began seriously thinking about signing up for the service.

"I like to try new things. I don‘t know if I‘d want to do it for the rest of my life but I definitely want to have a try at it," the 10-year veteran, now serving as a naval communicator on HMCS Montreal, said shortly after the navy announced women would be eligible for service on submarines.

"It‘s very different working on a ship. On a submarine you have to basically be able to perform any job on board in an emergency so it takes a lot of skills just to be a submariner," said MS MacArthur, gazing down from the dock at Victoria, a refurbished British submarine recently bought by the Canadian navy.

In the face of strong opposition from male sailors, the navy said women would be eligible for service in the last all-male bastions in the Canadian Forces, following Norway, Sweden and Australia in opening submarines to women.

The announcement caps an 11-year effort by the Canadian Forces to comply with the equality provisions of federal law and to topple barriers to women serving in every type of combat role from fighter pilot to infantry soldier.

Integrated sub crews will become a reality next year when the first women volunteers complete specialized training for service aboard Canada‘s four new Victoria-class submarines, said Vice-Admiral Greg Maddison, chief of the navy.

HMCS Victoria was commissioned last December. Its sister ships are expected to arrive at six-month intervals over the next two years.

The new British-made subs are roomier than Canada‘s now-retired Oberon-class, thus allowing separate change rooms and toilet facilities for men and women.

MS MacArthur was going home last night to consider signing up for service under the sea -- which involves month-long voyages in close quarters with little privacy.

She doesn‘t foresee any problems with privacy issues, even though men and women would have to sleep in the same area -- segregated sleeping quarters were ruled out because of the expense of renovating compartments.

"There‘s concern [with privacy] on any ship, whether it‘s a submarine or a surface vessel. As long as everybody is adult about it there shouldn‘t be any problem," she said.

But the problem may not be the 50 people working in the submarine. It may come from suspicious and skeptical spouses on land.

At a briefing on board the Victoria yesterday, several sailors expressed concern about their wives‘ reactions, said Commander Bill Woodburn, who skippers the Victoria.

He said there are many questions about how women will be integrated into the operation of the submarines.

"Is it doable? Yes. Do we have all the answers? No," Cmdr. Woodburn said.

Rear Admiral Bruce MacLean, commander of the Maritime Atlantic Force, said women would have a chance to take a look at life on a submarine before they literally take the plunge.

"It is going to be a challenge both for our men and women and in how we deal with the concerns of their spouses at home," Rear Adm. MacLean said.

"But I am absolutely convinced you simply can‘t deny 50 per cent of the population an opportunity to serve Canada on a submarine."

Rear Adm. MacLean said the privacy issue has been dealt with in other branches of the Forces.

"We have men and women sleeping in tents in Bosnia for months at a time. Is that any different type of privacy situation than on a submarine? I don‘t think so," he said.

Vice-Adm. Maddison said integration will require "cultural changes" among male submariners, and there may be "issues about how you deal with relationships that may develop" aboard the subs, but the navy believes its sailors are adult professionals who can adapt.

Canada‘s other warships -- indeed all Canadian Forces combat units -- were ordered integrated in 1989 by the Canadian Human Rights Commission. But the cramped Oberon submarines were exempted because of the lack of privacy.

Vice-Adm. Maddison said the four Victorias -- each with a crew of 48 officers and sailors -- afford men and women a measure of privacy, thus eliminating the last barrier to mixed crews.

He acknowledged there will be strong opposition from male submariners who are used to working in their skivvies on long undersea voyages.

They enjoy being in a "male-dominated culture where they could wander around in a submarine with a certain level of clothing on or off," Vice-Adm. Maddison said. "That will change."

A survey of 256 submariners found that fully two-thirds opposed the idea of mixed crews. Many of the men said they believed their wives would object because of the possibility of extramarital relationships developing. (Military regulations forbid sexual contacts in the workplace, including aboard ships.) The survey was conducted two years ago when the Canadian Forces began studying the issue.

Male sailors also strongly opposed integration of frigates, minesweepers and other surface ships in 1989, but mixed crews have proven to be a success, Vice-Adm. Maddison said.

"There really is a behavioural change, an attitudinal and cultural change, when men and women are serving together. And it‘s all positive," he said.

The navy has about 10,000 sailors. About a thousand of them are women. The women tend to be in onshore administrative and clerical jobs. There are only 475 women in the so-called hard sea trades, shipboard jobs that range from sonar operators and electricians to cooks and carpenters.

The navy surveyed the women in the sea trades and discovered that 27 per cent were interested in submarine service.

The Canadian Forces rejected the idea of trying to make one of the crews of the four new Victoria subs all-female because it would take too long.

All for being politically correct.

Its cramped enough as it is.

Wes
 

cameron

Full Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
the 48th regulator said:
Hi Cameron,

One of the first Canadians to die in Afghanistan was a friend and former member of my regiment.  He went regular force, and became a member of the PPCLI.  He went as far to become a paratrooper with them.

I can assure you, when he served with me in the 48th, never did we have to worry about racism.

We were a regiment from Toronto, so you can imagine the multitudes of ethinicity that made up the regiment.  But we were all highlanders, and we all wore the kilt and the Falcon.

CplDyer.gif


Words of remembrance written by Corporal Di Capua while serving in Afghanistan

Dileas Gu Brath Dyer!

tess

Thanks for relating that experience regulator, Army Vern's perspective was a very interesting and enlightening one too.  I should say at this point that I have two reasons for needing to know this, one personal the other academic.  The personal one is my interest in the CF and in possibly joining at some point (most likely Reserve).  The academic one is that if I decide to, after my present studies, go on and do a PhD, one possible thesis topic i'm considering is the history of visible minorities in Canada's maritime trades, including shipbuilding, trawler fishing, the merchant navy and the Canadian Navy.  Therefore the reason for my query.


edited to fix quote/post
 

cameron

Full Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Springroll said:
Originally, I was definitely considering it in the future but now its not really a volunteer situation.
I got my posting msg today...to subs...lol
I was a little scared at first, but now I am getting excited and look forward to the challenge.

The only question i am wondering know, is about the training. I know my screening will need to be done, but once that is all clear, then what? I have heard a few different things as far as the length of the training and such.

edited to change know to now

Congratulations Springroll! I envy you, best of luck
 

armyvern

Army.ca Myth
Mentor
Reaction score
34
Points
530
284_226 said:
...

Ah, there's that "I" again.  And why is it that when confronted with the issue of bigotry, the first thing that usually comes out of people's mouths is "I'm not a bigot, I have friends who are black/Asian/gay/French/insert name of other minority here"?  You do realize that means nothing, right?

Huh?  We have several people in this very thread who aren't even acknowledging it as an issue!  (Which just happens to be one of the problems that the survey suggests needs attention).

Here's my response and it goes along with that last line of your PM that you sent me where you wondered whether or not I was going to come back into this thread to point out to others that they may have misinterpreted your comments to me. I'll point out that I have just come back from Tim Hortons (with an extra large black) and so am just NOW getting back to this thread after leaving the site immediately after making my last post in this thread.

No, I'm not ignoring "their misinterpretation" of your comments for whatever reasons, I simply wasn't here to see them until now.

So here's my response, as I pm'd you.

One can only speak from their experience. When one says "I don't care how someone does the job as long as they do it" -- THAT does NOT mean that they are NOT acknowledging the issue. It means that THEY do NOT discriminate.

It neither means that THEY must be part of the 10.6%. YOU are just trolling now.

As to my comment:
He didn't say there was none. There's asshats everywhere -- it sure as frig doesn't mean the system condones it or encourages it and harbours it.

which YOU have have responded to with:
Huh?  We have several people in this very thread who aren't even acknowledging it as an issue!  (Which just happens to be one of the problems that the survey suggests needs attention).

Does NOT mean that they aren't ackowledging it is an issue. It means they are saying it isn't an issue FOR THEM either as soldiers or leaders (and that would be based on their OWN experience -- which THEY CAN speak to as per your #24).

It may also mean that:

they, like me, believe that

it sure as frig doesn't mean the system condones it or encourages it and harbours it

or that it is as big an issue as YOU make it out to be. The CF, being Federal, HAS to conduct these studies. The point being (and the same one that I made earlier) is that the chick involved in the situation I DESCRIBED in my initial response ... would have answered that study with a "yes, yes, yes, I am and have been discriminated against because I am a female." Just because she said so, doesn't MAKE it so, but it still counts as a "yes" for "sexual discrimination" in the study -- even though it had nothing to do with it -- except in her own damn eyes.

Lot's of people are disgruntled. Lots of people will blame that on anything they can, rather than look at themselves in the mirror and admit that they are a bag of shit and that race, sex, creed, nor colour has anything to do with it. Rather, their own shortcomings resulted in the 'disgruntledness'.

Studies, statistics and damn statistics.

Boy, talk about someone misinterpreting someone's comments. When they say that it isn't an issue for THEM -- for you to misinterpret that to mean that they are part of the 10.6%, or that they condone it, or that they refuse to acknowledge it.  ::) Wow. It's all one huge conspiracy all right.   ::)
 

the 48th regulator

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
0
Points
410
cameron said:
Thanks for relating that experience regulator, Army Vern's perspective was a very interesting and enlightening one too.  I should say at this point that I have two reasons for needing to know this, one personal the other academic.  The personal one is my interest in the CF and in possibly joining at some point (most likely Reserve).  The academic one is that if I decide to, after my present studies, go on and do a PhD, one possible thesis topic i'm considering is the history of visible minorities in Canada's maritime trades, including shipbuilding, trawler fishing, the merchant navy and the Canadian Navy.  Therefore the reason for my query.


edited to fix quote/post

Right on Cameron, good luck.  You will find that there are many trades available, and you will make many life long friendships.

dileas

tess
 

geo

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Let's get this straight....
Is there racism & sexual discrimination in the CF?  Yes
The CF reflects Canadian society and what you find on civy street you will find in the CF.

That having been said, the CF smaller and is much better at getting a grip on the situation.
Members are more concerned with getting the job done and placing their life in the hands of their work mates.  Some motivator huh?

We have a zero tolerance policy -  This does not mean that the accused will be dismissed upon our hearing the 1st accusations, it means corrective measures will be taken when it has been brought to the attention of the superiors...  and if the superior does not take care of things, then THAT superior TOO is as liabel for having let the behavior continue.

284_286  if you say you have seen something of it in your unit.... did you do anything about it?

All in all, I as a senior leader, I have made ffort to make the "workplace" as harmonious as possible.  Is it perfect - probably not BUT, it's pretty good.
 
Top