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Mindset of the antiwar crowd

Flip

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Brad Sallows said:
>If you want to know what I mean, rent the movie Gandhi.

Oh, please please please please PLEASE go out and put an end to war.  Go to the Sudan and conduct a sit-down blockade of some Sudanese gun trucks, for example.  Gandhi faced down the British.  Now it's time for those who worship his principles and traditions to go face down all the other guys with guns in various parts of the world.  Go forth and obstruct them while they try to make war.  And get some sun, since you look a little pale.

I thought it was stupid too.
He completely misconstrued who the "characters" were and what the context was.


 

Strike

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So how do these students find time to go throw rocks at cops and block traffic?

They are PoliSci students who are going for extra credit!  ;D
 

Infantry_wannabe

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It's definitely true that all peace protesters aren't 18 year old university students.

My father in law is a case study. He was a boy in Holland when the Nazis invaded. He saw random civilians pulled from his church and murdered by firing squad as retaliation for the activities of the Dutch resistance. He was in school when his classroom was blown full of holes for fun by a passing U boat. Most of his family was sent away to forced labour camps. He, not surprisingly, claims he is grateful for the Canadians who liberated him.

BUT he also says the following:
"War is never the right answer. The army should be abolished. It's a death cult."

Then, about Afghanistan: "They should pull them (the troops) all out of there. Why should we go across an ocean to save people we don't know?"

Does anyone else see irony in this?

Winston Churchill had a great quote: "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."

The odd thing is he is a very nice man personally, but if anyone can figure out the mental processes, you should be given a PhD in psychology.
 

Good2Golf

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Infantry_wannabe said:
It's definitely true that all peace protesters aren't 18 year old university students.

My father in law is a case study. He was a boy in Holland when the Nazis invaded. He saw random civilians pulled from his church and murdered by firing squad as retaliation for the activities of the Dutch resistance. He was in school when his classroom was blown full of holes for fun by a passing U boat. Most of his family was sent away to forced labour camps. He, not surprisingly, claims he is grateful for the Canadians who liberated him.

BUT he also says the following:
"War is never the right answer. The army should be abolished. It's a death cult."

Then, about Afghanistan: "They should pull them (the troops) all out of there. Why should we go across an ocean to save people we don't know?"

Does anyone else see irony in this?

Winston Churchill had a great quote: "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."

The odd thing is he is a very nice man personally, but if anyone can figure out the mental processes, you should be given a PhD in psychology.

IW, that is a puzzler.  My wife's father emmigrated from The Netherlands, and both he and his family that remained in Holland were most appreciative of Canada's contribution to help free a nation "across the ocean".

The following quote is from then Dutch Minister of Defence, Mr. Frank H.G. de Grave, spoken at the 55th VE Day anniversary ceremony at the Groesbeek War Cemetary just outside of Nijmegen:

"Veterans, for five long years, this country and much of Europe had been under a terrible shadow. Free nations had fallen. Millions cried out in the camps. Millions cried out of fear, hunger and desperation. Millions cried out for liberation. And you came for our liberation. You stood firm. You stood against ethnic violence and atrocities. You fought against tyranny. Naturally, it's impossible for the post-war generation to personally recall that moment of liberation. As the Dutch poet, G.C. Bloom wrote, "Not one of the unborn will ever appreciate freedom in quite the same way."

Our responsibility does not end at our own borders, you know that. Now we celebrate the fact that we were liberated during the Second World War and viewed from this perspective it is only logical that also today we have to stand up and fight for peace. We owe it to all those people grown out of the efforts of war. To all those people driven from their homes, brutalized, raped and murdered. We owe it to Europe. We owe it to our children. To the next generations. We owe it to ourselves."

G2G
 

DaveTee

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Strike said:
They are PoliSci students who are going for extra credit!   ;D

Hahah I'm in polisci as well (just transfered into it) and i hope i can argue with them all day. It'll be fun to continually prove them wrong.
 

Infantry_wannabe

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"Veterans, for five long years, this country and much of Europe had been under a terrible shadow. Free nations had fallen. Millions cried out in the camps. Millions cried out of fear, hunger and desperation. Millions cried out for liberation. And you came for our liberation. You stood firm. You stood against ethnic violence and atrocities. You fought against tyranny. Naturally, it's impossible for the post-war generation to personally recall that moment of liberation. As the Dutch poet, G.C. Bloom wrote, "Not one of the unborn will ever appreciate freedom in quite the same way."

Our responsibility does not end at our own borders, you know that. Now we celebrate the fact that we were liberated during the Second World War and viewed from this perspective it is only logical that also today we have to stand up and fight for peace. We owe it to all those people grown out of the efforts of war. To all those people driven from their homes, brutalized, raped and murdered. We owe it to Europe. We owe it to our children. To the next generations. We owe it to ourselves."

That's quite a quote. I agree 100%. I just wish I knew a way to convince more people of the wisdom of that, especially in these times.
 

Sassy

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Wow this thread was an eye opener, I've never been fond of peace protesters because they usually look so scummy.  But  holey hanna to find out that these peaceniks from our hollowed halls of Academia are in bed with radical Islamists was a shock.  This should of been on the front page of every leading newspaper why wasn't  this reported by MSM? It should be illegal for them to even associate with known terrorist groups, they should of been detained at the airport.  It's appalling that those who are screaming the loudest "Get our troops out of Afghanistan" are also in bed with our enemy. So I wonder what is their real motivation in  having our troops recalled?  I can't articulate how much I loathe these people, the next time I read a peacenik's post I'll picture a child with a bomb strapped onto him/her in the name of Hammas.  These people should be paraded through the streets with ropes around their neck, communist traitors to this country. 
 

canadianblue

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Sassy cool it with the knee jerk comments. Every person is entitled to their opinion in Canada with regards to political issues, whether they be socialist, liberal, conservative, green, libertarian, "communist", anarchist, etc. I hope to god that I never see the day in Canada when we are parading people in the streets with "ropes around their heads" because that is not the kind of country that I want to live in, and I'm sure most on here who tend to lean to the right of the spectrum would agree with me.
 

Shec

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Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.  The antiwar crowd are still as obnoxious as they were in my day, during the Viet Nam war era, when they would lambaste us,  your quintessential and time-honoured Canadian militiamen, whose closest involvement to VN was watching the news on TV.  They were such a pain then that I can still remember a  couple of stanzas of a poem published in a magazine and written by a US Marine,  went  something like this:

Pick up your armour and fight young man,
man if that are,
Put down your beads and your protest signs,
your pot and LSD...

...You want your freedoms and justice,
at least that's what you say,
defend them if you want them,
come join me in the fight today...


I don't know if your basic 21st century druggie still takes LSD but other than that the message is still valid no??

 

Greymatters

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There is a theory that many of the 'peace activist' / 'professional student' types can be steroetyped as those who are unable to fit into workplace culture, thus cannot find permanent jobs that can lead to careers, or, they are unable to fit into our societal culture, and remain alientated from normal everyday social groups.  Instead of looking for their ideal place to live or work, which may require leaving our country and looking elsewhere, they insist the the entire fabric of society already here be adjusted to fit their concept(s) of what society should be.   


 

kommando17

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Those anti-war people just dont have the stones to join the CF. Half of the anti-war people I know ask me if i will goto Iraq lol. They dont even know where our troops are. I have respect for the people who actually do some reaserch on the topic, or at least know where our troops  are. If they don't *I like to correct them. I like making people look like dumbasses. lol.

Cheers :cdn: :salute:
 

Loachman

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Sassy said:
peaceniks from our hollowed halls of Academia

What you really meant, I'm sure, was "hallowed halls", but sometimes we may wonder...
 
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Infantry_wannabe said:
It's definitely true that all peace protesters aren't 18 year old university students.

My father in law is a case study. He was a boy in Holland when the Nazis invaded. He saw random civilians pulled from his church and murdered by firing squad as retaliation for the activities of the Dutch resistance. He was in school when his classroom was blown full of holes for fun by a passing U boat. Most of his family was sent away to forced labour camps. He, not surprisingly, claims he is grateful for the Canadians who liberated him.

BUT he also says the following:
"War is never the right answer. The army should be abolished. It's a death cult."

Then, about Afghanistan: "They should pull them (the troops) all out of there. Why should we go across an ocean to save people we don't know?"

Does anyone else see irony in this?

Winston Churchill had a great quote: "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."

The odd thing is he is a very nice man personally, but if anyone can figure out the mental processes, you should be given a PhD in psychology.

I don't have a PhD in psychology, but I have seen and heard this in other people of the same generation from the Netherlands. Simply put, they were deeply traumatised by the war. Suffering extreme privation and (in once case I know of) resorting to eating a dog, the cause of their suffering is seen to be not the Germans, but war in general. In seeking to help others to avoid their suffering experience, they condemn war in general and express themselves in that particular way. I even encountered this thinking from a former member of the Dutch Resistance. He felt quite ashamed of the things he did in WW2, and suffered for it for the rest of his life.  It was only in death that he found release. We had some very interesting conversations about God and forgiveness in the last few months of his life.
 
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GreyMatter said:
There is a theory that many of the 'peace activist' / 'professional student' types can be steroetyped as those who are unable to fit into workplace culture, thus cannot find permanent jobs that can lead to careers, or, they are unable to fit into our societal culture, and remain alientated from normal everyday social groups.  Instead of looking for their ideal place to live or work, which may require leaving our country and looking elsewhere, they insist the the entire fabric of society already here be adjusted to fit their concept(s) of what society should be.   

Many Christians also feel that way. In fact, 100 years ago, that was the driving force behind the Social Gospel movement. That led to the formation of the CCF (later the NDP). They believe the Kingdom of God can be brought to fruition in this day and time by adjusting the thinking of the people. Right Education = Right belief = The Kingdom of God.

And you thought Islam was the only religion that wanted to change society?
 

canadianblue

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Many Christians also feel that way. In fact, 100 years ago, that was the driving force behind the Social Gospel movement. That led to the formation of the CCF (later the NDP). They believe the Kingdom of God can be brought to fruition in this day and time by adjusting the thinking of the people. Right Education = Right belief = The Kingdom of God.

And you thought Islam was the only religion that wanted to change society?

I think thats abit of an oversimplification of the social gospel movement. There was a large portion of society that was disturbed at the effects of unfettered capitalism, child labour, rampant poverty, racial intolerance, and chauvinism. I have no problem with people battling these evils in society as they often approach it in an ec I have no problem with people using their religion to do good, however I do have an issue when religion is used to advance the virtues of bigotry, jingoism, greed, and violence. If their was a movement similar to the Social Gospel movement in any Islamic country, I would have no problem supporting it, and the west certainly should not be concerned about it. In general looking back on history the Social Gospel movement was not a negative, I'd argue that it helped build our society as tolerant and compassionate one.

 
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Sigs Guy said:
I think thats abit of an oversimplification of the social gospel movement. There was a large portion of society that was disturbed at the effects of unfettered capitalism, child labour, rampant poverty, racial intolerance, and chauvinism. I have no problem with people battling these evils in society as they often approach it in an ec I have no problem with people using their religion to do good, however I do have an issue when religion is used to advance the virtues of bigotry, jingoism, greed, and violence. If their was a movement similar to the Social Gospel movement in any Islamic country, I would have no problem supporting it, and the west certainly should not be concerned about it. In general looking back on history the Social Gospel movement was not a negative, I'd argue that it helped build our society as tolerant and compassionate one.

I am not saying that the Social Gospel movement was evil. However, it did have a taint of what we would call racism and certainly pacifism. Racism in that it was believed that First Nations peoples could be educated to become "good" members of society through the Residential Schools. There was also a latent anti-Jewish and anti Catholic strain, as there  was across all Christian churches of the early part of the last century.

One of the cores of the pacifist movement was Toronto South presbytery of the United Church of Canada (basically the United Churches of the old City of Toronto). In 1939 the presbytery voted overwhelmingly against Canada going to war against Germany. That trend continues today. There continues to be a pacifist strain in all of the Christian churches in Canada, no matter what the denomination.
 
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