You know I tried I really tried I even followed my own sage advice and refrained from posting yesterday. But sometimes to quote Top Gun "I saw the shot I had to take it." 8)
And I am also relatively conversant with OW and ODSP as I interact with both recipients and local officials on a regular (i.e. weekly and often daily) basis.
Gee I’d love to interact with them only on a weekly and occasionally daily basis. You familiar with that Grimm’s tale about the husband and wife swapping jobs for a day.
Agreed they are two different programs with two different target groups. However, I have found recipients of ODSP are often quite capable of many things.
And so they should be, the social stigma of being labelled permanently unemployable aside but we’re off topic here.
Correct. It's a reasonable figure to use. It is not intended to 100% accurate, Feel free to provide the exact figure if you have it available. My point is that it is impossible for a single person to live on anything approaching the OW schedule.
Single person basic rate maximum $548.00, plus a drug card worth approx $500.00 a month in prescription costs and free emergency dental care. Going rate on the street for one in Toronto is $50.00 cash or so I’m told. I hear they go good with a bent script for percs. Add in a monthly maximum average of $250.00 for Employment related Expenses and another $250.00 max for Special Diet for a single and in theory one can survive especially with casual income either declared or not.. Rates go up proportionately for families. This includes the whopping 3% increase last year, another 2% is slated for the Fall, probably coincidentally just before the election.
Granted, but from officials in our county (Grey) the amount of fraud has decreased. According to this,
http://dawn.thot.net/Kimberly_Rogers/wb-qa.html
the amount is much smaller. More recent statistics are welcome.
Oh I learned how to play with stats in higher reading and writing school too. The numbers you quote give approx 12% Province wide were investigated. In many cases charges were not laid as it would be prohibitive to do so. The cost of a criminal proceeding was more than the fraud, Easier and more effective to attempt to recover the funds via administrative process.
Besides Provincial averages and/or states from a rural county out in cottage country compared to Downtown TO are like comparing apples and oranges. What are the numbers of meth addicts and HIV infected crack whores you have up there compared to the population as a whole. For that matter what’s your numbers like vis avis decent large single parent refugee families trying to get off the system.
When it is driven by humger or desperation, those mitigating circumstances have a significant bearing.
Something that I assure you is taken into account when deciding to prosecute or not. See my previous point.
I disagree. What is not being asked is if the system is sufficient in the first place. From my years of experience, including the "salad days" of the Rae government, it is not.
Actually things were worse for the poor under Uncle Bobby. Mind if you could stick your muzzle into the poverty trough he created you were set for life or at least a few years. The only jobs created with Jobs Ontario were the various levels of brokers, sub brokers and sub sub brokers to administer it. They should have stayed with it’s original name Jobs Incentive Program (JIP). OW is flawed and has been gamed and abused but it does work better.
OCAP got the headlines, but the information was/is also made available through government-funded Community Legal Clinics and Legal Aid Ontario.
Of course they found the loopholes. OCAP may be arrogant but no one accuses them of being stupid. It was similar to the Osgood hall Law student a few years back who wrote a treatise on how to defend against welfare fraud during the zero tolerance days. It was a very popular document among several downtown TO law offices as I recall. Interesting read, but I would have concentrated more on hard details and less on political motivated filler myself Maybe the movie will be better?
Possible. But absent proof...
This phrase is starting to get overused here. I guess one could say absent proof there is no God, actually some do, maybe I’m wasting my time in Church on Sundays. I could worship my nine iron.
Depends. The system is currently slow enough and obtuse enough that one would probably not even worry. BTW, it might be possible to make a Charter argument on restriction of freedom of movement... but that's for a lawyer to explore.
Well actually the system ain’t that slow or it isn’t if those running it are on the ball. And it’s not a violation of one’s charter rights to attempt to enforce terms of a contract as far as I know. OW recipients receive assistance from the municipality they reside in and are required to participate in whatever approved programs are set up by said municipality and/or the Provincial government. Failing to do so including not receiving prior approval to leave said municipality temporarily can be considered grounds for cancellation of benefits.
And absent a criminal charge in the case we are discussion, raising such questions is disingenious at best and highly judgemental at worst. Most people who come to my office on ODSP and OW are not schemers, fraudsters or criminals. They are people who need more of a hand up than a hand out. I have found if I treat them with dignity they respond with dignity.
But were not talking about most people here, just a specific few. As it is I’m not quite sure if Brett Taylor, Judy Hanson and their fellow travellers were charged with welfare fraud or not. However considering the numerous weapons charges, and the blowing up of several Vancouver stores, BC Hydro substations and the Litton plant in TO, I’m sure such charges if any were pretty far down on the docket. As for the Tigers charges were laid, and that particular little fund raising technique/extortion of fearful refugee familes isn’t being used now.
And absent any proof, it's idle speculation.... one that does no dignity to either the poor in this country or the disabled.or union members.
There's that phrase again. As a rule I adhere to the rules taught to me by my parents, treat everyone with respect and dignity until given cause to do otherwise. That even goes for sanctimonious anonymous Internet posters.
Actually it’s not idle speculation. What part of the “I’m the resident SME in this field” escaped you? For obvious reason including we' re off topic here I’m not providing more details over these means. You can either accept I do what I’m talking about or not. The site owner and/or the other staff will confirm my bonafides in this area.
Abusing a system set up to help alleviate those less fortunate than the rest of society whether for so called political reason or just personal gain is the real disservice and damage to dignity, mind that’s just my thoughts on the matter.
Yes. I know a number of them in this city. Some have been through rehab like it's a revolving door. Some make it. Some don't. Some have AIDS. Some don't. But not everyone on OW or ODSP is a hooker or a drug addict, either.
And no one said they were, just like no one is implying oh I don’t know that all members of the legal profession are pompous bloodsucking wastes of breathable oxygen. Some maybe, but some are dedicated caring professionals. Some teachers are good, others just lazy Ritalin pushers. See where I'm going with this.
For the reord I've dealt with persons living with HIV AIDS on a continual basis for a damn long time now and by choice including many who are addicts and/or in the sex trade. Some are some are fantastic persons dealing with a horrible situation with grace and dignity, mind so are many persons dying of cancer. Others are intolerable asshats. Same can be said for the meth addicts, coke heads, peodephiles and assorted social flotsam and jetsom that ain't hanging around your street corner I'll bet. Add in the impoverished refugees who were lied to by Papa Doc Cretin, Mr Dithers and their ilk about "yes you can be a Doctor, Enginer whatever here" and then found out surprise we were just fooling. Anyone attempting to deal in absolutes here needs to get the prescription changed on their rose coloured glasses.
My point is just that with no evidence that the CPA are on OW or any other provincial social assistance plan, it is prejudicial to suggest that they are, based on the specific case of the Squamish Five. It's really easy to condemn people based on our prejudices. I know I do it. It's a lot harder to assess people objectively and based on evidence. Especially if they smell, aren't clean, drool or differ from my worldview in some way.
Too true, preconceived prejudices are a wonderful thing. Like someone may find it all too easy to presume that all these army.ca right wing Harper loving gun loving trailer park trash types ain’t got no compassion for the those poor downtrodden members of society. That right is reserved solely for a certain educated liberal elite with a guilt complex. Please give me a break.
Here endeth the lesson.
Fellow mods and members my apologies for taking this one way off the tracks.
. I'm surprised you remember anything after all that acid....
