Mindset of the antiwar crowd

[Fyuri]

Please note that the following post is done partly in jest, something called sarcasm at times, if you will. I'm sure most of you don't need to be told that, but there's always one. If my wording seems harsh, don't read it. These are my thoughts.

I took personal ofense to the blog article by "blazingcatfur" on page one of this thread, where he attacked postal workers. We're not all psychopaths, just most of us.

"If we're in trouble for talking to people, whereas you can be considered a hero for bombing them, that's not the kind of world we want to live in."
Here's an idea... a really good one too... We can start fighting using the same guerilla tactics being used against our soldiers. Let's strap explosives to these "peace" activists, and let them have happy time with their new terrorist pals. It can be double the fun for them, because then they can be just like their new best friends, and make an explosive point to boot, not to mention the smoking crater that would be a better use for the air that these "people" are wasting.

What do you do when you have an infestation problem in your house? Call an exterminator. We need an exterminator of sorts to rid this country of the scum that resides in it.

There was more I was hoping to add, it was about how everyone was entitled to certain rights and all, without discrimination, you know that stuff, but I'm not sure of the exact wording of it, and so will not go into detail about that.

-Paul

My thoughts and prayers to all the soldiers, both overseas and elsewhere, making a difference in our world everyday, without asking for a single thanks from anybody, and all too often not receiving one. Consider this a collective one from everyone, we all owe you more than we can give. I hope one day I'll be half the soldier that most of you are.

 

[Greymatters]

It seems just a bit hypocritical that representatives of an 'anti-war' group would want to sit down and chew the fat with groups that promote and commit violence, even when they claim it is justified violence...

 

[KaptKain]

Consider this little tirade your freebie.....

NP, welll when others can say to hang peeps fer treason right off, yet I cant point out something I see EVERYDAY in another nations culture.....

My freebie is gone then....
Just cause somebody is from a terrorist organization ya always assume its their job to kill..every member. I know 99.999% are violent. But theres a chance of a good broker to speak to. And it is not at the cost of thee "governing" body to lose face up front. Back door scapegoat = peace activists. I believe in keeping ALL avenues open as possible to a final solution.
I do not believe the final outcome will be made publicly during the initiail phases if and when it ends. There would be too much losing "face" directly by any sides. Unfortunately it will not end for some time to come.

I would keep my eyes closely on them during any International traveling.

 

[Teflon]

:crybaby:

 

[Flip]

KaptKain,

BUT, I am sure theres a few there from these "terrorist" groups that actually want PEACEFUL remedies to the situations at hand. Such as members who lost ALL their children/grandchildren/spouse to it and don't want to see it continue.

Umm no. Just as there are anti-war groups, there are anti-peace groups.
We call them terrorists.
They are not like us. They have no interest in our kind of society.
In fact, western society is anathema to them, and cannot be tolerated.

By their choice (joining an islamist terrorist group) there can be no negotiation.
Unless of course you want to make Canada into an Islamist republic.
In short - they want to run things, globally - according to islamic law.
Your bank would not exist under islamic law.
Israel would not exist under Islamic law.
Elections (as we know them)would not exist under Islamic law. 
I could go on and on.

There are individual exceptions - Some Taliban members can go home
if they want.  

At least, that's how I view it.






 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

NP, welll when others can say to hang peeps fer treason right off, yet I cant point out something I see EVERYDAY in another nations culture.....

Don't push me, Sunshine.......

 

[George Wallace]

Here is another look at the CPA by Leonard Stern, from the Ottawa Citizen, and reprinted under the Fair Dealings Act:

A funny kind of peace

Leonard Stern, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Saturday, May 19, 2007

If there were a gold medal for misrepresentation, it would go to the Canadian Peace Alliance. As the Citizen recently reported, members of the peace alliance attended a conference in Cairo where other participants included terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah, groups that pioneered the suicide bomb.

The peace alliance, which claims to be the "largest network of peace coalitions and organizations in Canada," is an odd outfit. When North Korea tested a nuclear bomb last fall, the peace alliance issued a press release denouncing ... the U.S. and Israel. In another press release on Iran's nuclear program, the peace alliance denounced ... the U.S. and Israel. What's really weird, though, is a brochure on the alliance's website that seems to deny Osama bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11.

A diverse society makes room for all types: flat-earthers, swingers, Elvis-sighters. But please, choose a name for your organization that fits. If the Canadian Peace Alliance is consorting with people who blow up family pizzerias, then it has an odd definition of "peace."

One former official with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service has suggested that these "peace" activists ought not to be surprised if the Canadian security establishment will now take a closer look at them. In Cairo there were calls for "resistance" against "Zionists," which in the language of Islamism has often meant the killing of Jews.

Now some will argue that "Zionist" means "Israeli." Trouble is, Muslim fundamentalists have never bothered with such distinctions. In 1994, Hezbollah bombed a Jewish community centre in Argentina, killing dozens of "Zionists." Islamists murdered the Jewish journalist Daniel Pearl because, though born in New Jersey, to them he was a Zionist. Iran organizes "anti-Zionist" festivals featuring lectures from leading racists like ex-Klansman David Duke.

No, don't be fooled by the duplicitous language at the Cairo Conference, an event that one Egyptian newspaper celebrated as a significant step toward building an alliance between Islamists and western leftists.

It's clear why such an alliance benefits Islamists. Traditional Islamist propaganda such as martyrdom videos play well to Arabic-speaking crowds, but they don't resonate with western audiences. Hamas is better off being represented in the west by stooges who march under the banner of "peace" or "antiwar."

But what accounts for the attraction that some leftists have for militant Islam? The left historically has championed secularism, whereas Hezbollah is Arabic for "Party of God." What possibly could motivate secular leftists to sell their moral and intellectual inheritance, and to ally with religious totalitarians?

Radical leftists and lslamists have united in a shared hatred. The object of their hatred, according to literature from the Cairo conference, is "imperialism and Zionism." Again, in the coded language of militant Islam, that usually means Americans and Jews.

Hatred, especially anti-Semitism, is a curious disease, and people so afflicted will act even against their own interest. The left historically has championed the rights of women, whereas Islamists oppress women horribly. The left historically has advocated for liberal causes such as gay rights, whereas Islamists consider homosexuality a hanging offence.


James Clark, one the Canadian activists who went to Cairo, says that so far as he could tell, there was no anti-Semitism. Although he said that "oppressed" Muslims have been known in the past to "conflate Zionism as a political movement with Judaism," in Cairo people avoided doing so.

Yet there is something malignant on the left. We saw it six years ago, in Durban, South Africa, at the United Nations conference against racism. There, anti-Israel delegates carried signs saying "Hitler should have finished the job." Copies of the anti-Semitic classic The Protocols of the Elders of Zion circulated openly.

Still, one admired the chutzpah. Durban was billed as a conference "against racism" but really it was a forum for hatemongers. There's a similar disconnect when we hear of "peace" activists showing solidarity with with those who preach jihad.

Political extremists are savvy marketers. During the Cold War, Stalin's agents in the U.S. called themselves the American-Soviet friendship movement. They of course didn't want to build friendships but to bring communist rule to the Americas. On the radical right, white supremacists typically have the word "heritage" in their organizations' names. "Heritage" has a positive connotation and hides the organization's true nature.

The main association of Hitler apologists calls itself the Institute for Historical Review. Its agenda is to rehabilitate fascism, which was discredited as a political ideology thanks to the Holocaust. Its members think that if they can persuade enough people that there was no Auschwitz, then Nazism has another chance -- but of course the association can't openly advertise itself as fascist, so members call themselves "revisionists."

Never judge a book by its cover, or an organization by its title. Look closer. You might be surprised.

Leonard Stern is the Citizen's editorial pages editor. E-mail: lstern@thecitizen.canwest.com

© The Ottawa Citizen 2007

[EDIT to include LINK below]

LINK

 

[Vash13]

That's a good article George Wallace.  An interesting perspective on the etymology of names.  I think that the seemingly lack of 'conflicts of interest' that by all rights should exist between the leftist and the 'Islamists', should raise a warning flag immediately.  Breaking the law or no 'breaking the law', these people should be investigated thoroughly, if not have charges laid against them for supporting terrorist ideals.  I'd like to think out intelligence community has enough credit to itself that an investigation is underway already.

 

[Greymatters]

Political extremists are savvy marketers. During the Cold War, Stalin's agents in the U.S. called themselves the American-Soviet friendship movement. They of course didn't want to build friendships but to bring communist rule to the Americas. On the radical right, white supremacists typically have the word "heritage" in their organizations' names. "Heritage" has a positive connotation and hides the organization's true nature.

The actual purpose of these types of organizations was not to become a ruling party, but to use it as a 'neutral forum' that would attract people with 'open minds' who may be sympathetic to the cause.  These people could then subsequently be appraoched, assessed as to what types of information they have access to, or what services they can provide.  In the end, they are used as tools and discarded when no longer useful. 

 

[medaid]

Well, ya better charge me for treason then.
I am 100% against the actions that ANY terrorist group does that is harm mentally/physically/financially to any person/organization/nation.
BUT, theres always back doors to any organization to "secretly" hold peaceful talks to try to resolve any violent/political motives/actions they do on a daily basis. If the outcome can be less hostility/killing innocent people, and both sides getting "something" they want, I am ALL FOR IT!

The other side wants only one thing. The destruction of the Western civilization, it's ideals, it's beliefs, it's religion, it's culture it goes on and on and on...

What do we want? To stop them from killing us off, and spreading the terror, their curbing and restricting of human rights...

SO, I ask you my learned Kaptain, where do you see the both sides getting 'something' that they could possibly want? Sine both goals are polar opposites to the Nth degree. I don't know, maybe you can fill your profile out at the same time so, not only I but WE, can get a vague idea of WHO you ARE, and WHERE your views come from...

Regards.

MT.

 

[Emenince Grise]

I wonder how many have "charity status" or some form of recognition/status that could be hurt by these actions

The CPA makes it clear on their web site that they are NOT a charitable non-profit, because of their advocacy status.

http://www.acp-cpa.ca/en/donate.html

****Please note that while the CPA is a registered non-profit, our focus on advocacy means that we do not qualify for charitable status under Canadian law. As such, we cannot issue charitable receipts for tax purposes.

There are strict limits on the amount of money which can be spent on advocacy by a charitable non-profit.

 

[Emenince Grise]

How many of those people who went over there are on welfare, EI or other government handout and therefore not looking for work?  If any of them were, they should be cut off immediately and taxpayers should be refunded. Any union or other organization that may have funded the trip should have their books examined and if necessary they should be prosecuted for financing terrorism. 

I wasn't aware that being on Ontario Works, ODSP or being a union member precluded one from a) thinking b) holding an opinion, even if might be contrary to another person's. And I wasn't aware that receiving money from social assistance programs laid a particular responsibility upon any person other than to abide by the requirements of that program. Normally that does not require accountability to the taxpayer but does require one to keep to the regulations of the program.

That being said, having significant familiarity with social assistance programs in Ontario, I can say with confidence those who are attempting to perpetrate fraud are a) a very, very small number or b) truly desperate and unable to survive on the pittance available to them. Could you survive on $560/month for all your needs? And could you travel to a foreign country on such an amount? Could you even afford a passport?

Unfortunately these are the myths and unfounded prejudices people on OW and ODSP face on a daily basis.

No. Looking at the names of allied organizations with the CFP, I see the usual gang of Leftists. Most of them have been around for years.

 

[Greymatters]

BUT, I am sure theres a few there from these "terrorist" groups that actually want PEACEFUL remedies to the situations at hand. Such as members who lost ALL their children/grandchildren/spouse to it and don't want to see it continue.

Actually, no.  Members of violent groups who want peaceful solutions create a splinter organization, usually with a new name.  An example would be like how Sinn Fein was seperate from the IRA. You have no credibility trying to talk about peace if you remain part of the violent force you claim not to support.

BUT, theres always back doors to any organization to "secretly" hold peaceful talks to try to resolve any violent/political motives/actions they do on a daily basis. If the outcome can be less hostility/killing innocent people, and both sides getting "something" they want, I am ALL FOR IT!

True but I dont see how your 'secret' methods explain the activities at this public event....not very 'secret' is it?

 

[JBP]

Why couldn't we have 'accidentally' dropped a big bomb on the meeting place???

Maybe a bad idea, but I think it might have solved some issues...

 

[Danjanou]

I wasn't aware that being on Ontario Works, ODSP or being a union member precluded one from a) thinking b) holding an opinion, even if might be contrary to another person's. And I wasn't aware that receiving money from social assistance programs laid a particular responsibility upon any person other than to abide by the requirements of that program. Normally that does not require accountability to the taxpayer but does require one to keep to the regulations of the program.

That being said, having significant familiarity with social assistance programs in Ontario, I can say with confidence those who are attempting to perpetrate fraud are a) a very, very small number or b) truly desperate and unable to survive on the pittance available to them. Could you survive on $560/month for all your needs? And could you travel to a foreign country on such an amount? Could you even afford a passport?

Unfortunately these are the myths and unfounded prejudices people on OW and ODSP face on a daily basis.

No. Looking at the names of allied organizations with the CFP, I see the usual gang of Leftists. Most of them have been around for years.

OK as the site's resident SME on OWA, ODSP and related subjects if I may.

First of all lets separate Ontario Works (OW), the new name for welfare, from Ontario Disability Support Program as they are two separate programs with different criteria for eligibility both initially and ongoing. In theory someone legitimately in receipt of ODSP probably would not be well enough for the trip in the first place. However with them it's more dotting the eyes and crossing the tees that determine if you're granted not how disabled you are.

I don't know where you get $560, by the way as that number doesn't fit into any of the OW schedules I'm presently looking at so I'm presuming you used an average, rather that just pull it out of your fifth point of contact.

Fraud exists in the OW system and more than you would think. Dependent on Municipality it probably runs at 5-10% which is a lot less than during the Rae years, but still when you consider the size of the rolls a rather significant number of persons. Would we tolerate that many convenience store thieves? Yes there may be mitigating circumstances in many of these cases, hence the reason they are often not dealt with via the criminal courts system but rather through civil/administrative means. However it is still a criminal act.

More prevalent these days is milking the system. While there are plenty of cases of individuals who have spent a long time at it and basically devote themselves to gaming the system to maximize what they can take from it, they are in the minority. As an aside they're actually quite pathetic too as the time and effort spent to be honest could be better utilized and even a minimum wage survival job” would often be better financially and otherwise for them.

Most of the milking though is through organized groups, the recent "special diet" scams organized by OCAP in Toronto being the best know example.

Which leads me back to your original statements. As there is plenty of cooperation between the usual suspects in the far left groups, tactics such as how to milk the system are shared. This would enable someone to score the funds for a Passport, plane ticket either directly or more likely under the auspices of the agency/group.

As for whether a person on OW is allowed to attend such a function outside. Yes technically, however they would need prior approval from the administrator as technically their benefits are issued on the presumption that they are in their municipality actively engaged in whatever approved activity they have agreed to conduct to allow them to exit form the system. Of course this presumes that they told the Administrator where they were going in the first place which I doubt.

Finally there is a precedent for the misuse of the welfare rolls in Canada for such ends. During the early 1980’s The Anarchist group Direct Action, more commonly known as the Squamish Five admitted that they committed welfare fraud to obtain funds. Their justification was that they were too busy bomb making etc to hold don jobs. In the early 1990’s the Tamil Tigers developed an elaborate welfare fraud scheme in Toronto that extorted local Tamil’s to raise funds for their organization.

In short is in possible some of these frolickers in the shallow end of the gene pool who went to break bread with those we are at war with are in receipt of Government assistance? It would not surprise me in the slightest. Were they allowed to do so? In a word, nope. Will there be any repercussions?  I doubt it.

 

[Emenince Grise]

OK as the site's resident SME on OWA, ODSP and related subjects if I may.

And I am also relatively conversant with OW and ODSP as I interact with both recipients and local officials on a regular (i.e. weekly and often daily) basis.

First of all lets separate Ontario Works (OW), the new name for welfare, from Ontario Disability Support Program as they are two separate programs with different criteria for eligibility both initially and ongoing. In theory someone legitimately in receipt of ODSP probably would not be well enough for the trip in the first place. However with them it's more dotting the eyes and crossing the tees that determine if you're granted not how disabled you are.

Agreed they are two different programs with two different target groups. However, I have found recipients of ODSP are often quite capable of many things.

I don't know where you get $560, by the way as that number doesn't fit into any of the OW schedules I'm presently looking at so I'm presuming you used an average, rather that just pull it out of your fifth point of contact.

Correct. It's a reasonable figure to use. It is not intended to 100% accurate, Feel free to provide the exact figure if you have it available. My point is that it is impossible for a single person to live on anything approaching the OW schedule.

Fraud exists in the OW system and more than you would think. Dependent on Municipality it probably runs at 5-10% which is a lot less than during the Rae years, but still when you consider the size of the rolls a rather significant number of persons.

Granted, but from officials in our county (Grey) the amount of fraud has decreased. According to this,

Q: How many people were convicted of welfare fraud this year?

A: In December 2001, there were 682,862 people receiving social assistance in Ontario. In 2000-2001, Ontario investigated 52,582 social assistance recipients for fraud. Only 430 people were criminally convicted of welfare fraud. (Source: Ministry of Community, Family and Children's Services).

http://dawn.thot.net/Kimberly_Rogers/wb-qa.html

the amount is much smaller. More recent statistics are welcome.

Would we tolerate that many convenience store thieves? Yes there may be mitigating circumstances in many of these cases, hence the reason they are often not dealt with via the criminal courts system but rather through civil/administrative means. However it is still a criminal act.

When it is driven by humger or desperation, those mitigating circumstances have a significant bearing.

More prevalent these days is milking the system. While there are plenty of cases of individuals who have spent a long time at it and basically devote themselves to gaming the system to maximize what they can take from it, they are in the minority. As an aside they're actually quite pathetic too as the time and effort spent to be honest could be better utilized and even a minimum wage survival job” would often be better financially and otherwise for them.

I disagree. What is not being asked is if the system is sufficient in the first place. From my years of experience, including the "salad days" of the Rae government, it is not.

Most of the milking though is through organized groups, the recent "special diet" scams organized by OCAP in Toronto being the best know example.

OCAP got the headlines, but the information was/is also made available through government-funded Community Legal Clinics and Legal Aid Ontario.

http://www.incomesecurity.org/documents/ODSP-OWBenefits-UpdatedOctober2006.ppt

Which leads me back to your original statements. As there is plenty of cooperation between the usual suspects in the far left groups, tactics such as how to milk the system are shared. This would enable someone to score the funds for a Passport, plane ticket either directly or more likely under the auspices of the agency/group.

Possible. But absent proof...

As for whether a person on OW is allowed to attend such a function outside. Yes technically, however they would need prior approval from the administrator as technically their benefits are issued on the presumption that they are in their municipality actively engaged in whatever approved activity they have agreed to conduct to allow them to exit form the system. Of course this presumes that they told the Administrator where they were going in the first place which I doubt.

Depends. The system is currently slow enough and obtuse enough that one would probably not even worry. BTW, it might be possible to make a Charter argument on restriction of freedom of movement... but that's for a lawyer to explore.

Finally there is a precedent for the misuse of the welfare rolls in Canada for such ends. During the early 1980’s The Anarchist group Direct Action, more commonly known as the Squamish Five admitted that they committed welfare fraud to obtain funds. Their justification was that they were too busy bomb making etc to hold don jobs. In the early 1990’s the Tamil Tigers developed an elaborate welfare fraud scheme in Toronto that extorted local Tamil’s to raise funds for their organization.

And absent a criminal charge in the case we are discussion, raising such questions is disingenious at best and highly judgemental at worst. Most people who come to my office on ODSP and OW are not schemers, fraudsters or criminals. They are people who need more of a hand up than a hand out. I have found if I treat them with dignity they respond with dignity.

In short is in possible some of these frolickers in the shallow end of the gene pool who went to break bread with those we are at war with are in receipt of Government assistance? It would not surprise me in the slightest. Were they allowed to do so? In a word, nope. Will there be any repercussions?  I doubt it.

And absent any proof, it's idle speculation.... one that does no dignity to either the poor in this country or the disabled. or union members.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

With all due respect, something tells me you don't see the same "caliber" of recipient that Danjanou and I have the *cough* pleasure of dealing with..........different experiences make different outlooks.

Case in point......you do know just about every hooker and drug dealer are on the dole?  Makes for a nice little supplement and keeps the tax man away.

 

[Boxkicker]

The Canadian Peace Alliance...... Quelle surprise! :
About 10 years age I was assaulted by a member of Peace Now on my own door step for voicing the opinion that NATO was justified by it's actions in the former Yugoslavia viz the Kosovo bombing /invasion.
Sucker punch or not he could barely stagger off under his own power and friends who had been pretty verbally threatening became some what quiet when when I introduced him to my sidewalk...... and my lawn ...and my fence  and the city's sidewalk and the ..... well you know how it goes.

  Excellent, what a Joly Good show my man.

 

[Greymatters]

Possible. But absent proof...

Too many of your comments conclude with this line of reasoning.  Just because you yourself are unaware of something doesnt mean it doesnt exist or isnt true. 

 

[Emenince Grise]

With all due respect, something tells me you don't see the same "caliber" of recipient that Danjanou and I have the *cough* pleasure of dealing with..........different experiences make different outlooks.

Case in point......you do know just about every hooker and drug dealer are on the dole?  Makes for a nice little supplement and keeps the tax man away.

Yes. I know a number of them in this city. Some have been through rehab like it's a revolving door. Some make it. Some don't. Some have AIDS. Some don't. But not everyone on OW or ODSP is a hooker or a drug addict, either.