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Militarization of the police?

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OldSolduer

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This could be a turning point in history....we best watch it carefully.

We also should take anything the media says with a grain of salt, all media...not just the media we dislike.
 

Dkeh

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Jim Seggie said:
This could be a turning point in history....we best watch it carefully.

We also should take anything the media says with a grain of salt, all media...not just the media we dislike.

Very true.

As always, this image is valid.

pnwE82L.jpg
 

Haggis

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Kilo_302 said:
New Glasgow in NS has an armoured vehicle for #$@#'s sake.

Which came at next to no cost as this is part of the former MND's riding.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Sheep Dog AT said:
Cost isn't the question.  Reason is.

Maybe so a good guy doesn't get killed by a bad guy??  The same reason I'd love to see you guys with the safest kit possible.  Too bad you can't extend the fucking courtesy.......
 

Container

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I'd love to hear the insane reason that the police in Nova Scotia can't have an armoured vehicle with no weapons used as mobile cover. Also- I'm not coming at you sheepdog. I'm wondering what you think the reason they obtained it is beyond exactly what it's used for? One armoured vehicle in a province does not an occupying force make. The damned things are always busted anyways

I'll leave this here too. It's also interesting.

http://ulstermanbooks.com/officer-darren-wilsons-eye-socket-blown-michael-brown-prior-shooting/

Dkeh said:
From what I understand, the officer didn't know anything about any shoplifting at the time of the stop.

Also. Brown had not "shoplifted". He had robbed. There is a huge valley between the too. It is important because Brown would be a)'motivated to escape b) think the officer knew.
 

RCDtpr

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Sheep Dog AT said:
Cost isn't the question.  Reason is.

I pose this question to you.  If a member of your family was killed and the local police service could have potentially saved their life if they had an armoured vehicle but their explanation to you was "we could have had an armoured vehicle for cheap...but didn't really think we'd need it.  Now that it's evident a situation can happen we will definitely get one so it doesn't happen again."  Would you be satisfied with that answer?  I wouldn't.

The old saying rings true here...... It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.  It's not like the thing is out on patrol, it's parked in a hangar and comes out for training, dog and ponies, and god forbid really world scenarios.

Does the military NEED new planes, or tanks, or kit?  We aren't fighting any wars against conventional armies and haven't in quite some time, so by your logic the answer is no. 
 

cupper

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RCDcpl said:
If a member of your family was killed and the local police service could have potentially saved their life if they had an armoured vehicle

Can you give me an example of where this situation would actually occur?
 

Scoobie Newbie

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You want to make it personal go right ahead.  I think maybe you've been drinking the blue koolaid to long as well as seeing the worst in people for too long that it's clouding your judgement.

Bruce Monkhouse said:
Maybe so a good guy doesn't get killed by a bad guy??  The same reason I'd love to see you guys with the safest kit possible.  Too bad you can't extend the fucking courtesy.......
 

Container

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cupper said:
Can you give me an example of where this situation would actually occur?

Considering it's used in shoring up cover where none is present- sealing off armed people from escaping and one of its roles is to extract injured people  from hot zones....

I can think of a variety of situations.

Better than that. Since we use them all the time- can you give me an example in Canada where they have been used in a fashion that suggests the police were treating anyone but bad guys as bad guys?
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Sheep Dog AT said:
You want to make it personal go right ahead.  I think maybe you've been drinking the blue koolaid to long as well as seeing the worst in people for too long that it's clouding your judgement.

Sheep Dog AT said:
Cost isn't the question.  Reason is.

Then try something better then this drive-by shooting.......
 

Scoobie Newbie

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Population under 10,000.  maybe the county mountie here can get his own APC.  He may after all need one seeing he's the only act in town.
 

Container

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Sheep Dog AT said:
Population under 10,000.  maybe the county mountie here can get his own APC.  He may after all need one seeing he's the only act in town.

What? The vehicle is for the division.
 

Scoobie Newbie

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You started it with your courtesy comment.  Your not dealing with some noob you can bully here.  Feel free to try though.

Sheep Dog AT said:
Population under 10,000.  maybe the county mountie here can get his own APC.  He may after all need one seeing he's the only act in town.
 

Scoobie Newbie

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The question is is there a good chance they need it.  What are the crimes like there?  If they need it sure no question.  If it's just something new and shiny then maybe priorities should shift elsewhere.

If Bruce has any further comments he can PM me.  This thread is derailed as it is.

Container said:
What? The vehicle is for the division.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Infantryman2b said:
I don't see how beefing up American police is at all wrong considering the criminals and gangsters these days are carrying automatic assault rifles and heavy machine guns. Are they supposed to just continue using hand guns and riding around in lightly if at all armoured patrol cars? When a large population is rioting and looting in a country where firearms are plenty I think its fair that the police are as well armed and protected as possible. Gun violence is to much of a norm in America for the police not to be as equipped as possible. Its not like there patrolling the streets in APC type vehicles on the regular. Certain circumstances call for certain measures, and I fully support the police.

I have refrained from weighing in on this until now but this is the exact sort of sensationalist nonsense that is fuelling the militarization of the police force.

I don't see how beefing up American police is at all wrong considering the criminals and gangsters these days are carrying automatic assault rifles and heavy machine guns. Are they supposed to just continue using hand guns and riding around in lightly if at all armoured patrol cars?

When have organized criminal groups or gangsters ever been seen with Browning .50 Cal HMG's?  When have police ever been required to drive around in vehicles designed to defeat IED's, RPG's and Sustained Small Arms Fire?  Stuff that you would find in the worst warzones in the world.  I will grant it to you that occasionally, this sort of response is called for but it's a tiered response and not everyone should have it.  This response should also be measured against infringing against the rights of the citizens the police are sworn to protect. 

When a large population is rioting and looting in a country where firearms are plenty I think its fair that the police are as well armed and protected as possible.

Ferguson, Missouri with a population of 21,000 represents a large part of a country of 318,000,000 people  ::)  Again, more sensationalist nonsense fuelled by addiction to social media streams.

Gun violence is to much of a norm in America for the police not to be as equipped as possible. Its not like there patrolling the streets in APC type vehicles on the regular.

What is a norm to you?  Is it a norm because you saw it on TV or read it on Facebook or the latest Twitter feed?  Or, is it actually something that is statistically significant?

Also, contrary to what you said and given some other articles people have posted, it appears the police are patrolling the streets in APC type vehicles and using SWAT teams "regularly"



The fact is, statistically speaking, you and I have never been safer!  Homicide-rates in Developed Countries are declining every year and overall crime rate is at an all time low yet you always hear about how much more dangerous the world around us is?  Or is it?

The reason for this perception is due in large part to the increasing proliferation of media in our daily lives.  No longer must we wait until the next day or week to get the latest news from around the globe.  Nope, I can go on youtube and watch the latest video of a Jihadist blowing himself up, or watch a guy gun down a cop, or watch a fight, see car accidents, really anything scary, terrifying or horrific if I want to I can go online and in seconds access media footage of it. 

Seeing as Humans are curious creatures we will want to watch this material and the internet along with 24/7 News (If you call violence and war news) have given us unprecedented access to an assortment of media which provides us with near continuous stimulation.  As a result, it has changed the way we see and interpret information, the suggestion above that the "entire country is rioting and looting" is a perfect example of this.

Of course, lobbying groups have also cleverly used this proliferation of 24/7 media to their advantage and the police force, possessing a very powerful lobby, are no different in this regard.  Through media, they have been able to create a false construct that the world around us is growing more dangerous and more unpredictable and as a result have been able to secure increased funding even though statistics show that the actual need for their services is in decline.  The military could take a few cues from police lobbyists on how to open up the government coffers but I digress.


To conclude, the world is getting safer and safer everyday, the real danger in my mind is the increasing influence the media has over our society and its influence on our leaders decision-making processes.
Do I believe police forces are becoming more militarized?  if by more militarized you mean more heavily armed and using more heavy handed tactics, than yes I do.  This isn't the fault of the police or security forces though who are only carrying out tasks in accordance with the mandate they are given.  It's a fault of our politicians and of the judicial system for not having the fortitude to stand up to lobbyists and the media who increasingly shape how we think and act. 

My  :2c:


 

Container

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Sheep Dog AT said:
The question is is there a good chance they need it.  What are the crimes like there?  If they need it sure no question.  If it's just something new and shiny then maybe priorities should shift elsewhere.

If Bruce has any further comments he can PM me.  This thread is derailed as it is.

True. Not unfair. I don't know what their volume is. I'm under the impression that each division got one- not dependant on calls
 

J.J

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http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-lapd-pursuit-suspect-identified-20140819-story.html
An  excerpt from the article;
[The department's SWAT team used one of its two BearCat armored vehicles, a $150,000 rescue vehicle bought in 2003, to shield them as they approached Jones.

Smith said Jones peppered the BearCat with bullets, striking the SWAT officer, before he was killed by return fire, Smith said.

"Thank goodness we had that armored vehicle as a shield because a regular police cruiser would have been Swiss cheese," Smith said.

I am a LEO, so I have intimidate knowledge of what the capabilities of the bad guys are.

I'm sorry RoyalDrew if you think gun violence in the US is sensationalist, but I live across from Detroit, I have work commitments there where I'm there weekly. In the last 6 months for work I've been in Atlanta, NYC, DC, Miami, Buffalo, Columbus, Cincinnati etc. Its not the big bad police making stories up, these are dangerous cities where the bad guys possess automatic weapons, armour piercing RDS, grenades etc.


EDIT: Fixed quote box
 
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