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Michael Coren: "Caring for Karine"

SFB said:
Canadians do not want to see thier young and pretty daughters killed in war.
I don't think they really wish to see their son's die either.....WTF was that??


"Last week a young girl dressed up as a soldier died"

Mr. Coren,
Hi, if by some chance you read this post then please know that you just made a complete, 100% asshole out of yourself and should be ashamed in the worst way.
I know I'm ashamed for you.......
 
SFB said:
Nor do you have to be hit with a shovel to know the majority of Canadians are conservative in their views, who think a 21 yo pretty girl should be either a) at college presuing a career in education, nursing or child care, or b) at home getting married and making babies.

Canadians do not want to see thier young and pretty daughters killed in war.
You are only espousing your own opinion. Please don't presume to speak for anyone else, including the majority of Canadians, unless you have their permission or valid, provable studies to back your say so.
 
Mods, if this post is too inflammatory please delete and dock me the requistie Milpoints.

I think,

There was something compelling about this death in the minds of many Canadians but it wasn't just Trooper Karine Blais' gender:

-it was the timing and convergence of Karine's death with that of Afghanistan Women's Rights Activist Sitara Achakzai; Canadians tended to compare the two deaths--whether rightly or wrongly.

-it was the fact that Karine had only been in theatre 2 weeks--tragically un-tried; cut-down ... in her attempt to make this a better world--similar to what has befallen members of militaries throughout history.

-it was her youth--when it's a young death, as many have been, my heart hurts; we are culturally programmed, hard-wired to protect the young regardless of gender.

These elements are outside the fact of Karine's gender but taken together conspired to act as a national Canadian symbol for worldwide injustices to women. To many Canadians, Karine became that symbol--her death forced them to stop in their tracks and question the mission. This is not my opinion, this is what I've observed and here is one example:

http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/

(scroll down to Apr 15, 2009 entry)

I understand the feminist essentialist argument that SFB refers to; it underscores Coren's writing: women should be treated equal to men but because of their essential biological differences males and females can never be considered the same, but Coren goes too far. He misleads and conflates.

1) Misleads: the title " ... Sending Our Daughters to War in Afghanistan is Just Wrong." This was Karine's choice. Karine was not forced to go anywhere as Coren implies with his title. How arrogant of Michael Coren to denigrate the valiant choice this person made to defend her country and its values.

2) Conflates: Coren's hidden agenda is not so hidden as belied by the statement "the increasingly futile and pointless war in Afghanistan." If the author wants to write an opinion piece on the futility of the war in Afghanistan then he should do so; but, not by exploiting the deaths of either female or male Canadian soldiers. Karine was proud of her choice as indicated by statements made to the press by her mother.

3) But this turn of phrase of Coren's is, I find, intolerable " ... a young girl dressed up as a soldier ..."  She passed muster, she was a Canadian Forces trained, professional Van Doo!  Coren deserves a swift kick in the vicinity of his arrogant male testicles for that. How dare he reduce her efforts to that of a dress-up doll ... "another victim sacrificed on the alter of equality," indeed!!!

(@*&~WTF!!~*&^% :rage:)

And further, Karine was a "young woman" not a "young girl"-- It's belittling and disingenuous of Coren to try to sneak-in that distinction!

She was a beautiful young woman with a face that galvanized a nation--I think that's undeniable. But hopefully Canadians will see beyond that fact and place Karine's efforts in respectful and honourable perspective alongside her brothers- and sisters-in-arms.

I believe Karine's sacrifice should not be seen as different than anyone else's based on gender.  I think the CF showed exceptional leadership by firstly, anticipating public reaction and secondly, by immediately making it clear to the public that "females and males work shoulder to shoulder" in the Canadian Forces.



 
SFB said:
When Canadians, most who are much more ignorant, and much less liberal than they themselves can admit, see the picture of a young male soldier killed they say, "He is so young, so brave, parents must be proud of him and his service." But when they see equally young female soldier, they say, "she is so young, she is so pretty, why did she join the military, why did she want to go fight, why was she not at home making babies?"
SFB said:
Nor do you have to be hit with a shovel to know the majority of Canadians are conservative in their views, who think a 21 yo pretty girl should be either a) at college presuing a career in education, nursing or child care, or b) at home getting married and making babies.
Are you just saying that you THINK this, or do you have some proof you're basing this on?

As for Coren:
Look at the photograph of this beautiful girl. Look at the innocence, the gentleness, the grace. All of them precious aspects to the human character. So when I say that she was "dressed up as a soldier" I mean it as a compliment. I've known soldiers all of my life and I have an invincible respect for them. I've seen their courage, integrity and sheer decency.  I've also seen their capacity for controlled and righteous violence, which is absolutely essential for any fighting man. Yes, man. Because there are few if any women who have the skills required to serve as a front-line combat trooper.
1)  Do you have the 'nads to say that to any woman who's been there, done that?
2)  If you believe that there are certain things women can't do because men are better at it, I eagerly await your upcoming column on why men can't be nurses or child care workers - after all, if men can be trained to dish out "controlled and righteous violence", how can they be caring or nurturing, right?

We rightly condemn Islamic extremists in Afghanistan because they treat women so badly.
Wild idea to throw out there - based on reports like this and this, maybe making it better for the women would make it better for, oh, I don't know, the MEN as well?

Then we allow one of our own to give her life so that we can congratulate ourselves on how liberal and egalitarian we are ....
You think things would be better if we DIDN'T allow women to do the job if they're able to?  After all, it would be out of respect for their special status, right?  Maybe we could even create "secure environments where the chasteness and dignity of women may once again be sacrosanct", right?  Click on the link to see who agrees with you...
 
recceguy said:
You are only espousing your own opinion. Please don't presume to speak for anyone else, including the majority of Canadians, unless you have their permission or valid, provable studies to back your say so.

If my opinion is that Canadians do not want to see thier daughter die in war, then yes, I am espousing it. In fact every one of my comments is my opinion, regardless if it is based in fact or impression.

If every comment, opinion or idea here needs scientific proof backing it, then we are going to have one boring website to visit.
 
And I have one more opinion.

Tpr Blais does look dressed up  in her file photo. Her combat shirt is too large and she lacks a Cdn flag on her shoulder, lacks a name tag, and her slip on does not have a regimental designation.

You'd figure if you were lined up to get a stock photo to be released to the media, that someone in the CoC would have ensured thier troops were properly dressed?

But that is just my opinion.
 
SFB said:
If my opinion is that Canadians do not want to see thier daughter die in war, then yes, I am espousing it. In fact every one of my comments is my opinion, regardless if it is based in fact or impression.

If every comment, opinion or idea here needs scientific proof backing it, then we are going to have one boring website to visit.

Ahhh, but see, that's not what you said ;) Anyway, point, on both sides, made. No need to derail the subject further.
 
SFB said:
And I have one more opinion.

Tpr Blais does look dressed up  in her file photo. Her combat shirt is too large and she lacks a Cdn flag on her shoulder, lacks a name tag, and her slip on does not have a regimental designation.

You'd figure if you were lined up to get a stock photo to be released to the media, that someone in the CoC would have ensured thier troops were properly dressed?

But that is just my opinion.

I believe lack (shortage of) of uniform accoutrements was addressed in another thread.
 
recceguy said:
Please don't talk down to us. We're not the morons in this discussion.

Thank you Recce. My thoughts exactly.

I am not mad at anyone other than the slimeball that wrote that article. Ignorant and chauvanistic, and his words make my blood boil.
 
ENGINEERS WIFE said:
I do think the average Canadian is not ready for women to come home in a flag draped casket.

My wife was very upset. I know I shouldn't admit it, but I was too.
 
mariomike said:
My wife was very upset. I know I shouldn't admit it, but I was too.

You're not alone in struggling to come to terms with this.  :(
 
Michael Coren is neither an idiot nor a "slimeball".

He is a respectable and intelligent columnist.

He is also very conservative in his views, and a little old fashioned.

We have come a long, long way in a few short years regarding issues such as gender equality and integration, full acceptance of gays - to the point where they can participate, in uniform, in Gay Pride Parades - and perhaps a few other socially controversial issues. There is a thread here somewhere where transgender issues regarding washrooms and showers is being discussed very openly and maturely (last time I looked, anyway). That would not, could not, have happened not too very long ago. When I joined, there was still a QR&O entitled "Sexual Deviance" and homosexuality was a chargeable offence.

Much of the rest of society is still lagging behind. Most of the rest of society has never had to deal with these issues, has no experience with them, and cannot imagine where the CF is today.

Not so long ago, my attitudes towards women in the CF were rather similar to Mr Coren's. It took a lot to convince me that integration of women into combat roles was anything other than a huge mistake, but I saw it happen bit by bit and have no lingering skepticism at all anymore.

Karine represented, and represents still, among many good things, what is the norm for us now, but she is still a pioneer to many in society at large and her death will mean different things to many people than it does to us. Mr Coren is simply expressing some of those views.

Respond to Mr Coren, but do so to educate rather than insult.

He is not so close-minded as he may appear in this one column, and gentle education will do him, and us, much good.
 
Loachman,

Very wisely & eloquently stated. Your comment is impressive. Thank you.

Walt
 
Walt said:
Loachman,

Very wisely & eloquently stated. Your comment is impressive. Thank you.

Walt

Thanks. I get that way sometimes.
 
Mr Coren, with all due respect Sir ... grow up.

The world has moved on and we 'girls dressed up as soldiers' have come a long way. We earned it and here we are.

Your opinions are lovely (if very outdated and chauvenistic), but I'll not give up a career that I love and am good at - to satisfy the likes of you.

We cared for Karine - she was, and always will be, one of us; may she rest in peace.
 
Not so long ago, my attitudes towards women in the CF were rather similar to Mr Coren's. It took a lot to convince me that integration of women into combat roles was anything other than a huge mistake, but I saw it happen bit by bit and have no lingering skepticism at all anymore.

Bingo. Those are my thoughts exactly. I admit that my reaction to Karine was somewhat different than it has been for the males before her. Perhaps I have accepted the concept of females fighting in combat, but the concept of them dying in combat lags behind a bit.

God bless all of them, and the families.
 
This young lady is not the first female CF member to have met an untimely end.  However, with her youthful looks and appearance it is all to easy for those with personal agendas to use her as a way to drive home their own points, which is not only tasteless but disrespectful to her passing.

Regarding Mr. Coren's attitude and description of a "girl dressed as a soldier", I don't find that this can be passed off as just old-fashioned conservatism - he's an educated and experienced person who should know better than to use statements that indicate personal bias and prejudice.  Judging by his wording, he probably refers to his own female co-workers as 'girls' as well, and I would imagine those women are no more impressed than our female CF members...
 
If we now bar women from combat ops, we have taken a step back. Is this what we want? It is OUR choice, as men OR women in Canada to join the military, and some of us will pay the ultimate price. To deny women that CHOICE is wrong.
 
Greymatters said:
This young lady is not the first female CF member to have met an untimely end.  However, with her youthful looks and appearance it is all to easy for those with personal agendas to use her as a way to drive home their own points, which is not only tasteless but disrespectful to her passing.

Regarding Mr. Coren's attitude and description of a "girl dressed as a soldier", I don't find that this can be passed off as just old-fashioned conservatism - he's an educated and experienced person who should know better than to use statements that indicate personal bias and prejudice.  Judging by his wording, he probably refers to his own female co-workers as 'girls' as well, and I would imagine those women are no more impressed than our female CF members...

And I'd agree with you; I most certainly don't "dress-up" as a soldier .. I AM a soldier.

Edited to add ... here's what "dressed-up" soldiers look like.  ;)

Wishing someone would pimp my ride.
 
Loachman said:
He is a respectable and intelligent columnist.

It doesn't show in this particular piece.

Loachman said:
He is also very conservative in his views, and a little old fashioned.

Using the death of a soldier to bash the current government is, IMHO, as distasteful as this commentary. 
A "little" old fashioned?  ::)
 
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