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Mandatory H1N1 shots for soldiers could violate Charter - CTV News

Yrys

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Mandatory H1N1 shots for soldiers could violate Charter

OTTAWA — The Canadian Forces reserves the right to order its soldiers deployed
in Afghanistan to take the vaccine meant to prevent swine flu, says the military's
surgeon general. But Commodore Hans Jung said it would be an order of last
resort that will need to be studied to ensure it doesn't violate the Charter of Rights
and Freedoms.

Just how far the military can go in ordering illness-prevention measures is a sensi-
tive topic given the bruising legal fights almost a decade ago over anthrax injections.
The current plan is to make the H1N1 vaccine, expected to be available in November,
voluntary for soldiers, sailors and aircrew throughout the Canadian Forces, including
those on duty in Kandahar and elsewhere around the world.

But the nightmare scenario of an army laid up with the flu isn't far from minds of
commanders. "The option of mandatory (injections) is a hip-pocket issue. It's a card
that would be played in a truly dire circumstances," Jung said in a recent interview
with The Canadian Press. "We're going to be strongly recommending that everybody
take the vaccine offered. Obviously depending on how the pandemic evolves in Canada
and around the world, the government and the military may have to think about"
ordering soldiers to take it.

Jung said the chief of defence staff, the country's top military commander, has the
necessary legal authority to make it happen, as seniors commanders did during the
1990s, when troops, sailors and air crew heading to the Middle East were required
to take anthrax vaccinations. Those who refused were brought up on disciplinary
charges and court martialed.

The practice of mandatory anthrax injections, which made some soldiers sick and
raised fears among them of Gulf War Syndrome, ended in 2000 on the orders of
military judge Col. Guy Brais. He ruled the program was violation of a soldier's
constitutional rights.

Jung took over as surgeon general and head of the military's health branch in the
summer. He said the possibility of a swine flu pandemic, with an army fighting in
the field, presents National Defence and the military's health services branch with
a unique challenge. He described the policy as in "evolution."

There is growing public skepticism about the H1N1 vaccine. Canada has ordered
more than 50 million doses from GlaxoSmithKline. For military members stationed
at home, the system of immunization isn't much different from that for ordinary
citizens. Health Canada officials have repeatedly stressed that the swine flu
vaccination will not be mandatory for Canadians and Jung said that includes members
of the military.

But overseas it's a different matter, where the army's health services branch has set
a goal of voluntarily immunizing between 60 and 70 per cent of the roughly 2,850
Canadians serving in Kandahar. Jung said if they don't get that figure and the flu is
severe, commanders would have to look at a mandatory system.

One of the complicating factors in that equation is that Canadian troops share the
airfield with more than 15,000 other NATO troops and patrol through regions where
Afghans have little access to basic medical care and sanitation. Jung said he's confident
they'll get enough volunteers and said much depends on the severity of the anticipated
second wave.

The military is watching the computer simulations on the potential spread H1N1. The
contingency plans at National Defence range from a mild outbreak, similar to the seasonal
flu, all of the way up to aid to the civil power in the event of a pandemic as serious as the
1918-19 Spanish flu.
 
I'm all in favour of vaccination. However, even though I don't personally support it, this has been challenged. I don't know if this is of interest to the discussion. Just FYI, not intended to provoke:
"In 2002, the Ontario government withdrew legislation that made it mandatory for paramedics to get flu shots, after the paramedics' union launched a legal challenge under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms."
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/story_print.html?id=1820019&sponsor=
 
I may be completely mis remembering, but I thought the reason there was such a problem with the anthrax vaccines is that they had not passed testing, were still expermental and had not been approved for public use.

I don't think this is the case with the H1N1 vaccine.
 
mariomike said:
I'm all in favour of vaccination. However, even though I don't personally support it, this has been challenged. I don't know if this is of interest to the discussion. Just FYI, not intended to provoke:
"In 2002, the Ontario government withdrew legislation that made it mandatory for paramedics to get flu shots, after the paramedics' union launched a legal challenge under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms."
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/story_print.html?id=1820019&sponsor=

Personally, my stance on this would be:  Here's the flu shot, it's not mandatory however, if you do not get it and you get sick, you will NOT be entitled to pay for your sick days, nor will you be entitled to sue the hospital (paramedic services, military) for any complications due to your illness.

No different than us offering DEET, permethrin treatment, sunscreen etc and strongly recommending their use and we still get people with diseases transmitted by insects and I'll bet my last dollar there are going to be some cases of melanoma "attributable" to service in Afghanistan*.

*Because it's closer to the sun, right, JM?  ;)
 
H1N1 vaccine hasn`t been fully tested either. Think I will wait until after the mass vaccinations as there are already groups set up to see what side effects will be exeperienced.
 
Personally, I would NOT want to get this vaccination for a multitude of reasons.

This vaccine hasn't been fully tested or trialled.  And even after it has been, some of the long-term side effects won't be seen for many years to come.

There are different versions of the vaccine being produced for different countries.  The FDA for example only requires that 3 out of 10 people don't suffer any serious reaction to the vaccine in order for it to be approved - pretty scary figure if you ask me.

If regular strains of flu kill tens of thousands of people a year, and the government could care less whether I get a flu shot....why do they care so much if I get vaccinated against a strain that has killed only a fraction of a fraction of that?? 

*Putting on my tin foil hat* -- personally, I'm gonna stay away from that vaccine.  Big time.
 
CBH99 said:
If regular strains of flu kill tens of thousands of people a year, and the government could care less whether I get a flu shot....why do they care so much if I get vaccinated against a strain that has killed only a fraction of a fraction of that?? 

*Putting on my tin foil hat* -- personally, I'm gonna stay away from that vaccine.  Big time.

My opinion exactly.... If I'm unlucky enough to die of a flu, then my ticket was punched and there was nothing anybody could have done. 2 guys on our platoon at St. Jean this summer were confirmed cases of swine flu and they were fine other then a few days of bed rest cause of a fever. The other 53 of us that ate, slept, and breathed with them the whole time didn't even catch it, and we were a particularly young course (average age probably 22 or 23) so throw that theory out the window too.

If I can be legally ordered to get it, then it is what it is. Other then that though, I'm not going to waste my time trying to prevent myself from getting your every day flu.










 
I recall the last time i was ordered to get a shot . It was called gammagoblin. in 94 prior to going over to Bosnia. not fully tested but REQUIRED , well it turns out a batch of the shots were POSSIBLY contaminated with the human variant of  CHJ. otherwise known as mad cow ... so now ever since then i have been forbidden to give blood documented on my med docs but never taken off  every time i go for  med check ups i ask if anything has beenworked out about this still to this date more then 15 yrs later no change we can neithe r confirm or deny etc.... i was up to 25 for the canadian blood bank . this can sit dormant for decades the get active , so now it comes time for anothe r nonfully tested shot , thanks ill wait in the getting charged line for refusing it ..
 
axeman said:
well it turns out a batch of the shots were POSSIBLY contaminated with the human variant of  CHJ. otherwise known as mad cow ...

Do you mean the new variant of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (nvCJD)?

New variant CJD accounts for less than 1% of cases, and tends to affect younger people. It can result when someone is exposed to contaminated products.

Some cases of nvCJD have occurred in adolescents who have received growth hormone made from the pituitary glands of cadavers (dead bodies). Prions cannot be destroyed by ordinary disinfection techniques used to prevent transmission of viruses and bacteria. As a result, the hormone remains contaminated. Cadaver-derived growth hormone has been replaced by synthetically manufactured growth hormone, so this source of contagion is no longer a problem.

Other nvCJD cases have occurred when people were given corneal transplants from infected donors, and from contaminated electrodes that were used in brain surgery (before it was known how to properly disinfect instruments).

There have not been any cases of nvCJD reported in the U.S.

Source:  Medicine Plus

What is the risk of getting vCJD if a vaccine contained the BSE agent?

There is no evidence to date that vaccines have contributed to the cases of vCJD seen in Europe. Nor is there evidence that any vaccines harbor the BSE agent. Vaccines are given a very limited number of times via the intramuscular, subcutaneous or oral route. Even in experimental studies, these routes of administration are less effective at spreading the agent than the intracerebral route usually used to assess infectivity in animal studies. The amount of infectivity present and the efficiency with which the BSE agent passes from cow material to humans will also affect the likelihood of infection.

Source:  Vaccines and Variant CJD (vCJD) Questions and Answers

If the gamma globulin vaccines were live (that's a bit before my time as a Med Tech or PMed Tech), they would have been made with human plasma and therefore, not contaminated by CJD per se.  There is an accompanying warning to the vaccine, that it may contain viruses that may cause disease.

Source:  http://www.cangene.com/pdf/2006/Healthcare%20info%20for%20website%20070109.pdf

 
According to The Ottawa Citizen -September 24, 2009: "City won’t force front-line workers to get H1N1 vaccine":
"Front-line city workers, including police and firefighters, will not be forced to get the H1N1 flu vaccine."
That's nice of them.
Then it goes on to say, "The only exception to the rule in Ottawa is paramedics, who must get flu shots unless they have experienced bad reactions in the past."
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/health/City+force+front+line+workers+H1N1+vaccine/2025965/story.html


 
To all the anti-vaccinationists out there -  :crybaby:.

I'm likely getting my shot on Monday - I'll give day by day updates about my health status and if holes are being bored in my brain by a prion or something.

Speaking of prions, axeman, I got that same batch of ISG in '94, and I'm still (reasonably) normal...that immunization has been in use on humans since long before either of us had joined the service, so has been thoroughly tested in my view - and is still in use today.  We don't routinely give it in the CF anymore, since the reason we did - to prevent Hepatitis A - has several vaccines available now for long term use.  If you recall, the ISG was only good for the duration of the tour, hence the reason we usually got it just before getting on the plane or as close to it as possible.  And even once the Hep A vaccine came out, we still used ISG for short notice deployments until all had been immunized for Hep A - the last time I gave it was for Op Assurance in '96, the same time we started getting a Hep A vaccine online.  The people on the recce party all got it, since the actual Hep A vaccine wouldn't have been in their systems long enough for a take.  To be honest, we had a far higher risk of getting blown up on a land mine in Yugo than our lifetime chance of developing CJD from our ISG shots.

We vaccinate people in the CF simply so we can ensure highest operational capability - imagine a flu epidemic on a ship at sea or at a FOB in Afghanistan - those pers would be out of the picture for AT LEAST 5-7 days, and that's when treated right away with anti-virals.  A unit could be literally incapacitated - imagine fighting a pitched battle where even a quarter of your troops can barely lift their weapons, see straight or even comprehend orders from fever or simply getting a ship safely from point A to B in a high sea state, etc.  Alot of people equate the flu with a cold and they really aren't the same thing by any stretch of the imagination.  The actual illness not withstanding, influenza can debilitate for some time after the formal disease state has ended - it can cause depression, long term post-viral cough, general weakness and other sorts of nastiness.  I've seen the result of what happens when a large group of people living in close quarters en masse don't get their flu shots - it's pretty work intensive for me and my colleagues and downright unforgiving to the souls who get sick.

Fact is folks, there is always a risk of some sort of side or adverse effect with ANY medication you take - even natural ones.  As it stands at this time, everyone is going to be offered, but not ordered, to get the vaccine.  Choice is yours - at least for now  :).

Cheers.

MM
 
medicineman said:
We vaccinate people in the CF simply so we can ensure highest operational capability - imagine a flu epidemic on a ship at sea or at a FOB in Afghanistan - those pers would be out of the picture for AT LEAST 5-7 days, and that's when treated right away with anti-virals.  A unit could be literally incapacitated - imagine fighting a pitched battle where even a quarter of your troops can barely lift their weapons, see straight or even comprehend orders from fever or simply getting a ship safely from point A to B in a high sea state, etc.  Alot of people equate the flu with a cold and they really aren't the same thing by any stretch of the imagination.  The actual illness not withstanding, influenza can debilitate for some time after the formal disease state has ended - it can cause depression, long term post-viral cough, general weakness and other sorts of nastiness.  I've seen the result of what happens when a large group of people living in close quarters en masse don't get their flu shots - it's pretty work intensive for me and my colleagues and downright unforgiving to the souls who get sick.

Fact is folks, there is always a risk of some sort of side or adverse effect with ANY medication you take - even natural ones.  As it stands at this time, everyone is going to be offered, but not ordered, to get the vaccine.  Choice is yours - at least for now  :).

Cheers.

MM

All well and good. But when I see a vaccine being fielded over hype rather than real threat, I'm a bit skeptical. Check out the story of the 1976 swine flu outbreak and the deaths caused by a rushed and unnecessary vaccine.
 
What you're overlooking is that your relatively self limiting (given your age and gender) infection is someone else's life threating disease. We don't need millions of "typhoid marys" giving babies, young women, and old folks a potentially fatal disease. As someone who works in emergency medicine I can tell you first hand... it's not a good way to die.
 
In response to the worry about Guillain-Barre Syndrome in the 76 epidemic, yeah, about 500 people were affected of the 46 million vaccinated, to varying severities.  I guess what alot of people fail to look at are how many people are affected by GBS yearly - and most often the result of a some sort of viral infection, most frequently the flu.  In the 76 outbreak, ~530 cases were attributed to the vaccine - out a total of 46 million people vaccinated.  That is roughly equivalent to the percentage of people that are affected yearly of 1-2/100,000 - vaccinated or not.  Of note, many flu vaccines have been given over the years since without huge outbreaks of GBS.

Anyways folks, just make an informed decision.  I'll keep y'all updated - if you don't hear from me much, I'm on a ventilator  ;D.

Cheers.

MM

Modified contradictory stats.  MM
 
H1N1 - much ado about nothing.

Much wringing of hands and knickers in a twist.

 
OldSoldier said:
H1N1 - much ado about nothing.

I'm getting mine this week, just in case it's not.
 
Here's an interesting historical comparison:

On 22 September 1915, 9224 Sgt John Woodcock, "B" Boy, The RCR, was tried by District Court Martial at Shornecliffe, England.  Woodcock was found guilty, sentenced to be reduced to the ranks (i.e., demoted to Private) and to undergo 42 days of detention.

His crime: "Conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline, inciting men against Inoculation."
 
Michael O'Leary said:
On 22 September 1915, 9224 Sgt John Woodcock, "B" Boy, The RCR, was tried by District Court Martial at Shornecliffe, England.  Woodcock was found guilty, sentenced to be reduced to the ranks (i.e., demoted to Private) and to undergo 42 days of detention.
His crime: "Conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline, inciting men against Inoculation."

Regarding John Woodcock. I was curious to see if he survived the war. He is not listed in the CWGC register, so apparently he did survive.
I attempted to look up his Attestation paper to see where he agreed, like everyone else in the C.E.F., to be "vaccinated, re-vaccinated or inoculated". But, I could not find his Attestation paper.
I also attempted by S/N, but 9224 was assigned to a man named "Mertens":
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-110.01-e.php?PHPSESSID=fbugnnv3icdgnrigcqojafiu92&q1=&q2=&q3=9224&interval=20
I am guessing that perhaps because he was already a Sgt in 1915 and with such a low Service Number, that perhaps he joined when the paperwork was different?
My guess is that perhaps he himself may have been exempted from inoculation? Although men junior to him were not exempt.
I came across this on the subject:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=cXm7AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=war+refuse+inoculation&source=bl&ots=d7kqIISgqC&sig=u6OeQtnJxojT_fuj0_3Y0-iPkNs&hl=en&ei=WczlSrqMCoPOlAfT-ajoCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=war%20refuse%20inoculation&f=false

Let me modify. Thanks for the update below, Mike!

 
mariomike said:
Regarding John Woodcock. I was curious to see if he survived the war. He is not listed in the CWGC register, so apparently he did survive.
I attempted to look up his Attestation paper to see where he agreed, like everyone else in the C.E.F. to be "vaccinated, re-vaccinated or inoculated". But, I could not located his Attestation paper.
I am guessing that perhaps because he was already a Sgt in 1915 and with such a low Service Number, that perhaps he joined when the paperwork was different?
My guess is that perhaps he himself may have been exempted from inoculation? Although men junior to him were not exempt.

Attestation paper here. The 9224 regimental number is his Permanent Force (i.e., pre-War) number, the Regiment had not yet converted to the CEF number block before that record was made.

He survived the war and was eventually promoted to CSM (WO II).
 
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