Man-portable Anti-Armour Weapons in the Infantry

[ducimus]

Posted to ducimus.com by a serving reserve infantry Private.

As most soldiers who have fired the M-72 and Carl G realize that there are several limitations to both weapons. The M-72 is lightweight (great), but lacks pentration power and distance to be effective against anything other than soft-skinned vehicles or poorly built defences. The Carl G, including the Mk3 version, is rather heavy at 8-9kg (CG Mk.3)unloaded for the average infanteer to carry with its limited effecitveness against tanks, but is excellent for use against IFVs and bunkers. Both of these weapons have dangerous backblasts. I propose that the CF purchase a weapon that retains the best features of both the Carl G and M-72 (effectiveness, lightweight, disposable, etc...) and provide a feature currently provided only by the Eryx. There are several major companies on the market that currently produce excellent candidates, but in my opinion Bofors, who also make the Carl G, produce a weapon called the AT-4 CS 84mm disposable rocket. It uses the same ammunition family as the Carl Gustav, but with modified rocket motors that also enable it to be fired inside buildings for close quarter battle. It is disposable and lightweight, about 5-6kg, which enable it to be easily carried and quickly fired, and it has adequate effective range at 350-500m. An infantry platoon will have a truly multi-purpose anti-armour/assault weapon in each section without requiring a specialized Carl G team. It also creates a simpler supply system, and limits mechanical breakdown problems for both peacetime and wartime situations. To provide longer range accuracy, an anti-armour section should be created in light infantry Companies using the Eryx to complement this proposal, but that is another topic entirely. Please provide comments. Thank you

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Can one of the infantry types tell me at what unit level is Carl G, Eryx and TOW issued at. I am assuming Carl G is issued to the section, Eryx to a platoon and TOW at company level but I am probably so far out to lunch I should take the rest of the day off. Would appreciate any help you guys can give me.

 

[Infanteer]

Been a while since you got away from the field, eh Ex-Dragoon? 

For now, the 84 mm Carl Gustav is a Platoon level Anti Armour asset.  Two members of the Platoon weapons det are assigned as an 84 gunner and a loader.  Usually, they "accompany the Platoon Commander for point defence". 

For our dismounted company, we had a few Eryx's at the company level (a few of the company HQ members were trained on them).

However, the mech platoons do things differently due to the fact that they all have a big ammo wagon to ride on.  I think they have an 84 and an Eryx in every LAV (so, 1 for each section).

TOW used to be its own platoon in the Battalion's Combat Support Company.  However, that was a bygone era, with the TOW moving to the MMEV under the DFS Regiment (A poor idea in my opinion, but then again, I'm just in the Shut-up-and-Die ranks, so....)

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Thanks Infanteer I did not realize how much less you guys were being issued with.

 

[MG34]

Yup,we are losing firepower to keep a bunch of ex tankers employed....fun wow!!!

 

[Yard Ape]

TOW used to be its own platoon in the Battalion's Combat Support Company.  However, that was a bygone era, with the TOW moving to the MMEV under the DFS Regiment (A poor idea in my opinion, but then again, I'm just in the Shut-up-and-Die ranks, so....)

Just to clarify, the TOW vehicle will not be the MMEV.  We will have MMEV based on ADATS, and we will still have the same old TUA turrets but on new LAV III platforms.  Both vehicles look a little tall though.

In a mechanized force, I think TOW (or its eventual replacement) should be held at the company level as part of a DFS Pl (including MGS or something better).  This would give the mech company the ability to protect itself from enemy tank companies.  However, this Pl would also give the mech company the ability to engage in offensive operations against enemy mech elements supported by tank(s).

I think the Bn level anti-armour should consist of a NLOS system that can reach to 8 Km or more.  MMEV may eventually be able to achieve this, but I don't see the Bn needing the full spectrum of MMEV capabilities if it is in a Bde setting.  Some TOW or LOSAT systems could be held at Bn level to support the NLOS capability.

MMEV would be a suitable Bde asset if it can (as some presentations I've seen have suggested) reach out to 10 km with NLOS.

The Mech Pl & section vehicle should be able to engage tanks in self defence (to break contact/transfer contact to DFS Pl).  I think a fire & forget system with range comparable to a tank (~4 km) would be suitable for this.  LAV turret mounted Javelin would work for this.

Our dismounted capability is almost right (one Eryx per Section, and ond Carl G per Pl), but it still needs fixing.  We need a MRAAW(H) at the Coy level.  I think this would best be achieved by putting one in each Pl.  Paired with the C6, the dismounted Pl would have armour & personnel killing ability out over a kilometre.  The company HQ could hold a fourth MRAAW(H).  Javelin would be suitable for this.  By using one missile for the dismounted Pl and for the section vehicles, the logistical burden is also reduced.

 

[Infanteer]

Thanks for the clarification Yard Ape.

Our dismounted capability is almost right (one Eryx per Section, and ond Carl G per Pl), but it still needs fixing.  We need a MRAAW(H) at the Coy level.  I think this would best be achieved by putting one in each Pl.  Paired with the C6, the dismounted Pl would have armour & personnel killing ability out over a kilometre.  The company HQ could hold a fourth MRAAW(H).  Javelin would be suitable for this.  By using one missile for the dismounted Pl and for the section vehicles, the logistical burden is also reduced.

I like this proposal.  Do the Brits use the Javelin?  As well, I've heard of a few new MRAAW weapons in development (one by Israel I believe); whats the status on those?

 

[AmmoTech90]

Infanteer,

There was a joint CAN/UK MRAAW trial in Gagetown a couple of years ago and the UK selected Javelin (so did we but see my other recent post about that).  In Eritrea 2 RCR deployed a LAV Coy and each rifle section carried Eryx missiles in the LAV. The Pl HQ carried the Carl G and no Eryx.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Also to clarify: there isn't enough Karl G's or Eryx's to go around to every LAV nor the people to operate them effectively.

 

[Kirkhill]

What happened to them all?

As of 1997, according to DND's published equipment data sheets of the day DND held 1439 Carl Gustaf M2s and had just aquired some 50 or so M3s with the Carbon Fibre barrel vice the Steel barrel.

Articles of the same vintage indicated an Eryx by of 300 launchers (with tripods) and 15,000 missiles.

Just to round out the numbers 154 TOW were purchased and/or in service between 1972 and 1997.  I understand that 10 of these were allocated for pedestal mounts on jeep/Iltis/Bv206 while the remaining 144, which had been pedestal/tripod mounts carried on M113s were paired into 72 Kvaerner Eureka TUA turrets.  These were mounted on M113s in 1992.  33 of these units are to be dismounted from the M113s, refurbished and remounted on new LAVIIIs.

That accounts for 66 of the 154 TOWs available in 1992.  Sort of demands the question what about the rest of the 88 that are now surplus to requirement?  Is there a role for them in Reserve units mounted on jeeps and pedestals?

I clearly understand your point about people but I don't understand the shortage of hardware.......unless somebody has been awfully careless with their tools 

Cheers.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Well I'd guess that the number would be divide up into all combat arms units reg and reserve, schools (gagetown), WATC etc.

 

[Kirkhill]

1439 Carl G's at 4 CGs per platoon is enough for 360 platoons or 120 companies (3 platoons per company) or 40 battalions (3 companies per battalion)

300 Eryx at 4 Eryx per platoon is enough for 75 platoons or 25 companies or 8 mech battalions and a spare company.

We have (administratively - not manned) 9 reg battalions with 27 companies with 81 platoons. 

 

[Infanteer]

Remember, Reserve units often have three or four Carl G's sitting in their vault.

 

[MG34]

Don't forget there are some in war stocks,some at 3rd line maint.,overseas,etc.There are more than enough to go around.

 

[Yard Ape]

Should we also be looking for an M72 replacement as they are going out of service?  I believe it is the AT4 fires a warhead the size of a Carl G round, but is disposable like the M72.  With a general purpose rocket like that we would have an effective bunker buster & it would still be effective against armour.