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Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF

Booter

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TB has acted disconnected from the public stance of the government. I think it’s an oversimplification to think that it’s a matter of telling the government that TB isn’t listening- I can think of several areas where the government has made one comment, with regards to the need for compensation, and the follow on with TB isn’t in step.

Maybe you’re suggesting something else and I didn’t sleep enough.

I will agree that the first steps to doing something is honesty on our part. Instead of play nice and maybe next year it’ll get dealt with,

But really…is
PLD why you’re hemorrhaging?
 

Quirky

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In terms of recruiting or being attractive to the workforce, how many of hiring age are even thinking about pension or benefits? I know in my 20s I wasn't.

I did, the recruiter told me I could "retire" at 43 and not pay for school. My parents were ecstatic that I joined, they reinvested my college money into property in BC. This was in the early 2000s, you can only imagine how much values have gone up. Basic training was a joke and I didn't find it particularly challenging, maybe living with billet families playing hockey in my late teens helped. Most kids these days can't see or plan past their day, nevermind 25 years. The military was different back then too, so I don't know if I'd join in 2022.

It's a problem that the organization as a whole needs to fix, or we'll keep bleeding people. The fact that we've seen no movement whatsoever on the issue is a very clear sign that the organization as a whole doesn't really care about the fact that we are bleeding people.

The military saves appox $1.3B annually on salary alone because we are understaffed. (figure 20k people x $65k/y) Where is that money going?
 

daftandbarmy

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It's a hot job market out there and most government jobs find it hard to compete, like in the US military too apparently.

Oh, and some of the people I talk to - Canadians - think their kids are all going to be drafted and sent to war against Russia so there's that (ridiculous) perception:


Military Recruiting Is Increasingly AWOL. Can We Fix It?​



But the larger issue with recruiting is that fewer and fewer Americans now see value in joining the armed forces. Young people typically join for either economic or patriotic reasons, or a combination of the two.

For those motivated by pay and benefits, companies like Amazon are offering packages that include pay of at least $15 an hour, fully funded college tuition, health care, and 20 weeks of fully paid parental leave.

Conversely, a brand new Army private, assuming he or she works a 40-hour week (which is unlikely; most work 60+) earns about $11 an hour.

Those who might normally be inspired to serve anyway are likely deterred by the messages they are receiving today (or not receiving) from American society.

A recent Gallup poll showed that between 2017 and 2022, Americans who believe military officers possess “high ethics” declined by a full 10 points, down to 61 percent, the lowest since they began measuring.

The very public disaster that took place with the Afghanistan withdrawal further contributed to the public’s loss in confidence in the military and its leaders.

For those who watch TV, young people can easily find fundraising commercials featuring veterans tragically wounded, but little in the way of the virtues of military service.

 

SeaKingTacco

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It's a hot job market out there and most government jobs find it hard to compete, like in the US military too apparently.

Oh, and some of the people I talk to - Canadians - think their kids are all going to be drafted and sent to war against Russia so there's that (ridiculous) perception:


Military Recruiting Is Increasingly AWOL. Can We Fix It?​



But the larger issue with recruiting is that fewer and fewer Americans now see value in joining the armed forces. Young people typically join for either economic or patriotic reasons, or a combination of the two.

For those motivated by pay and benefits, companies like Amazon are offering packages that include pay of at least $15 an hour, fully funded college tuition, health care, and 20 weeks of fully paid parental leave.

Conversely, a brand new Army private, assuming he or she works a 40-hour week (which is unlikely; most work 60+) earns about $11 an hour.

Those who might normally be inspired to serve anyway are likely deterred by the messages they are receiving today (or not receiving) from American society.

A recent Gallup poll showed that between 2017 and 2022, Americans who believe military officers possess “high ethics” declined by a full 10 points, down to 61 percent, the lowest since they began measuring.

The very public disaster that took place with the Afghanistan withdrawal further contributed to the public’s loss in confidence in the military and its leaders.

For those who watch TV, young people can easily find fundraising commercials featuring veterans tragically wounded, but little in the way of the virtues of military service.

The 40% pension after 20 years (in my case) was a drawing card when I joined at 17 (YMMV). More important was the ability to do cool and adventurous stuff. An employer can get away with a lot in terms of poor pay and benefits if the job is fun and interesting. Just saying….
 

SupersonicMax

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People need to stop pretending like Treasury Board is some sort of immutable force of nature. Or, anything other than another branch of the government. We're employed by the government.

Like... if you go ask Dad for something, him telling you that Mom won't let him doesn't lead to a satisfying answer. If we're having retention issues because of pay and PLD, that's a problem for the government to solve. I, as a service member, aren't going to nod my head and accept the fact that the CAF can't talk TBS into helping to fix the problem any more than I'd accept that, I dunno, that the Engineers can't talk the Log guys into getting that part we need.

It's a problem that the organization as a whole needs to fix, or we'll keep bleeding people. The fact that we've seen no movement whatsoever on the issue is a very clear sign that the organization as a whole doesn't really care about the fact that we are bleeding people.

And every service member should be taking that lesson to heart: loyalty is a two way street, and if your employer doesn't appear to be giving a shit about you, then you sure as hell shouldn't be giving a shit about them.
DND and the CAF are talking with the TBS (at fairly high levels) about those issues. But the TBS needs to be convinced. And that’s the difficult part.
 

Furniture

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I did, the recruiter told me I could "retire" at 43 and not pay for school. My parents were ecstatic that I joined, they reinvested my college money into property in BC. This was in the early 2000s, you can only imagine how much values have gone up. Basic training was a joke and I didn't find it particularly challenging, maybe living with billet families playing hockey in my late teens helped. Most kids these days can't see or plan past their day, nevermind 25 years. The military was different back then too, so I don't know if I'd join in 2022.
It is a similar story for me, I joined knowing that a pension was the end goal. I didn't want to be like the people I saw around my local area who worked into their 70s, not because they loved the work, but because they couldn't afford to retire.

I will agree that the first steps to doing something is honesty on our part. Instead of play nice and maybe next year it’ll get dealt with,

But really…is
PLD why you’re hemorrhaging?

I get the impression that the CAF has tried the "leak" to the press method of getting something through TB, and it has backfired, so now they are trying playing nice.

PLD isn't the only issue, but it is important. When I moved from Esquimalt to Trenton I lost $13K a year in benefits. My cost of living decreased slightly, but definitely not by $13K a year... The difference in lifestyle based on the whims of a posting plot/plugging holes, is an issue that needs to be resolved.

A friend of mine is releasing because he simply can't justify the expense, and hassle of living in Ottawa, when he can afford a better lifestyle back on the East coast with his pension, and a part time job.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Have all TB staff pegged to fill in the missing ranks of the CF if needed, that might give them some incentive to ensure that there are enough troops. TB and their polices are the cause of much grief and not just for the CF.
 

dimsum

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Have all TB staff pegged to fill in the missing ranks of the CF if needed, that might give them some incentive to ensure that there are enough troops. TB and their polices are the cause of much grief and not just for the CF.
Are you suggesting conscription? :ROFLMAO:

Warhammer 40K Twitch GIF by Hyper RPG
 

Good2Golf

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TB is quite literally a standing committee of cabinet — several senior MPs, one of whom is the Board’s President. So the Board directly executes the will of the PM/PMO managing spending, issuing delegated Orders in Council and managing the operation of the federal public service, including pay rates and agreements with federal public servants, the CAF and RCMP. TBS per se, is the bureaucratic staff stricture that supports the Board.

 

OldSolduer

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TB is quite literally a standing committee of cabinet — several senior MPs, one of whom is the Board’s President. So the Board directly executes the will of the PM/PMO managing spending, issuing delegated Orders in Council and managing the operation of the federal public service, including pay rates and agreements with federal public servants, the CAF and RCMP. TBS per se, is the bureaucratic staff stricture that supports the Board.

And is the preeminent board. In the USA SecDef and SecState are the POTUS chief advisors.

Here in Canada is Chrystia advising the young whelp......tis to weep.
 

Eaglelord17

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The fact 40% of the population would consider the CAF is actually outstanding considering how many I have met who have questioned why I would want to even be part of the CAF.

Instead of focusing on pensions, or pay, focus on the things that the CAF can offer that no one else can. Bring back a work hard, play hard lifestyle, focus on creating camaraderie instead of basically trying to make the CAF a other civilian job without the benefits of being a civilian job.

As a organization we should be seeking out young individuals. War is a unfriendly business and being physically fit is a large part of it. The older you get the harder that becomes. Our military is old, it recruits a lot of older people. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can mean those joining later in life are only doing so because they can't find better civvy side. Not because they want to be there, rather they have to be there.

We are currently trying to build a organization focused on families when the military isn’t a good fit for families as a job and nothing we do shall change that. Just like how being a fly-in maintainer isn’t a good fit for families either. This is another advantage of trying to focus on young people is they don’t have these strings attached to them. Not saying you can't have a family but as many find out, it is hard to balance a military career with one.

The Americans and British both do well with their systems which are designed mainly for people to do 3-12 years in then have a nice life. Instead we see everyone who leaves as a personal insult and a failure in the system. Maybe its worth exploring the idea that we don't need everyone to stay in 25 years, and having short term sign ups aren't a bad thing.

Some things we could do to encourage people to join/stay are: Give anyone who serves 4 years a paid education if they choose to leave. Give anyone who signs up a write off on their student loans (likely would get a bunch of mid 20s recruits who have realized their degree qualifies them to work minimum wage but have 80k of debt). Put shacks in on base and encourage troops to live in them rent free or for a much reduced standard rate (solves base location problems for housing costs, could also get rid of PLD, I don't care what the treasury board policy is, policy can be changed). Let sailors live on ship again.

Cut the pension years down to 20 again, 25 makes people leave sooner, many are willing to suffer through it for 20 years though. Speed up recruitment, you wait you lose out (this is a government job problem, no I am not looking for a job two years after I applied and if I was, it is questionable the quality of candidate I would be).

Young people want a party/experiences, doesn’t matter which generation it is. The more we move away from that, the less younger people will join/be retained and the worse it shall be.
 

lenaitch

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TB is quite literally a standing committee of cabinet — several senior MPs, one of whom is the Board’s President. So the Board directly executes the will of the PM/PMO managing spending, issuing delegated Orders in Council and managing the operation of the federal public service, including pay rates and agreements with federal public servants, the CAF and RCMP. TBS per se, is the bureaucratic staff stricture that supports the Board.


With the concentration of power in the PMO, TB and Cabinet will only really care if the PMP cares, and the PMO will only really care if the 'votes calculus' makes it worthwhile and/or they get embarrassed. Telford et al likely figure 'we've announced gobs of money for the military - there is no pleasing you people'. Even at the Ministerial level, I doubt this is on her radar.

Assuming similarities between the federal and Ontario provincial system, I have worked on projects that arose from the Premier making a public announcement of $X million for a new initiative, then having our sweated over, detailed a fully-costed submission to Management Board (TB) turned down because they didn't feel the business case was strong enough. Apparently 'cuz the Premier said so', isn't sufficient. By then, the Premier has got the media and has moved on. What was worthy of an announcement is now yesterday's news.
 

Colin Parkinson

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TB is quite literally a standing committee of cabinet — several senior MPs, one of whom is the Board’s President. So the Board directly executes the will of the PM/PMO managing spending, issuing delegated Orders in Council and managing the operation of the federal public service, including pay rates and agreements with federal public servants, the CAF and RCMP. TBS per se, is the bureaucratic staff stricture that supports the Board.

The TBS staff looks down upon everyone, PS, DND, citizens. They are the keepers of the pursue and they answer only to their masters. They come in, eff things up, then leave, repeat as required. Adherence to policy is the only thing they care about, regardless of the outcome.
 

Good2Golf

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The TBS staff looks down upon everyone, PS, DND, citizens. They are the keepers of the pursue and they answer only to their masters. They come in, eff things up, then leave, repeat as required. Adherence to policy is the only thing they care about, regardless of the outcome.
To be fair, there are some really smart folks in TBS and for the most part, I think at the lower to mid-levels, they’re altruistically trying to ensure the GoC gets value for money. Higher levels are well into the influence-sphere of the PM/PMO. Can they play red light, green light? Oh yeah. Is it vindictive? No, I don’t think so. DND had had some real «bêtises» in the past that have really put a strain in the Department’s credibility, so it’s not a one-way street for why things don’t seem to advance the way most folks think they should. I’ve seen cases where DND folks thought that an argumentative approach was warranted…hint: “Alex, I’ll take ‘Things you should never do’ for $1000”
 

CountDC

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Pension and job security was a factor for me. Most of the new members I talk to only have short term goals - job experience, cheap/free education and work experience so they can move on to the civilian career they really want.
 

Quirky

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With Covid sorta behind us and seeing how willing governments are to shut down societies, having a pandemic-proof salary should be on everyone's mind.
 

Brad Sallows

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Should be a way to sell how service can help a person grow from teenage high school graduate to mature confident competent adult capable of leading other adults (small teams) in a few years. Not sure exactly how.
 

SeaKingTacco

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Should be a way to sell how service can help a person grow from teenage high school graduate to mature confident competent adult capable of leading other adults (small teams) in a few years. Not sure exactly how.
The CAF seems to be the only military on the planet that can make going fast, blowing things up and shooting automatic weapons unattractive to teenagers…
 

YZT580

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Should be a way to sell how service can help a person grow from teenage high school graduate to mature confident competent adult capable of leading other adults (small teams) in a few years. Not sure exactly how.
first off is by selling the notion to school guidance people as a viable alternative to 4 years to a B.A. in humanities. Many have drunk of the society owes me Kool-Aid and look down upon the military as right wing bigots. Teachers have a significant influence over young minds. The press doesn't help in that regard either. That is a steep uphill climb to overcome.
 
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