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Lost - Missing Kit ( merged )

Pusser

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Chapter 38 of the QR&O covers your liability and requirement to pay.  It's complicated and horribly outdated, but it is nevertheless, the rule.  In a nutshell, the maximum anyone can ever be ORDERED to pay is $250 and that has to go to the CDS!  Having said that, there is nothing precluding the Department from going after the whole amount of any loss, they would just have to go through a legal process to do it (in layman's terms, get a court order).  It is also worth noting that the regulations specifically mention that negligence is a key element in finding a member liable - no negligence or even only minor negligence should result in no requirement to pay.  There is a strong argument to say that any negligence in this case would be minor in nature.

Whatever you do, don't let the guy on the counter tell you that you have to pay then and there.  You MUST be given the chance to object on the grounds that the proposed deduction is "excessive or unwarranted." 
 

Halifax Tar

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Pusser said:
Chapter 38 of the QR&O covers your liability and requirement to pay.  It's complicated and horribly outdated, but it is nevertheless, the rule.  In a nutshell, the maximum anyone can ever be ORDERED to pay is $250 and that has to go to the CDS!  Having said that, there is nothing precluding the Department from going after the whole amount of any loss, they would just have to go through a legal process to do it (in layman's terms, get a court order).  It is also worth noting that the regulations specifically mention that negligence is a key element in finding a member liable - no negligence or even only minor negligence should result in no requirement to pay.  There is a strong argument to say that any negligence in this case would be minor in nature.

Whatever you do, don't let the guy on the counter tell you that you have to pay then and there.  You MUST be given the chance to object on the grounds that the proposed deduction is "excessive or unwarranted."

100% right.  I have dealt with JR Sup Techs on power trips who think they can scare people with high dollar amounts. 

Also your CO is the deciding factor as per recovery or not.  Not some Cpl at the clothing stores counter.

The stated QR&O has that reference and so does the Supply Admin Manual (SAM).  Unfortunately I am on leave and camping or I would provide you the SAM ref as well. 
 

Pusser

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Notice how it's the Navy guys who are telling folks how to defend themselves against excessive or unwarranted payments for lost kit?

Coincidence, or are we just nicer?  ;D
 

Halifax Tar

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Pusser said:
Notice how it's the Navy guys who are telling folks how to defend themselves against excessive or unwarranted payments for lost kit?

Coincidence, or are we just nicer?  ;D

How about compassionate ? Lol
 
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Hey everyone, I just finished my first BMQ weekend as a reservist and got issued my kit, however I didn't get a ride and I ended up having to bring all my equipment home via public transport. Somewhere along my trip, I being the idiot I am managed to lose one of my mortar gloves, or whatever the gloves that are black on the inside and green on the outside are called. I need to get it replaced before my next BMQ or else I feel I'm going to get ripped a new one, does anyone know how much it costs and how to get one replaced?
 

mariomike

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A Very Cold Fire said:
I didn't get a ride and I ended up having to bring all my equipment home via public transport.

I assume you have done so already, but in case you have not, you may call the Lost and Found of the transit service.
 
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Already tried, they Haven't seen anything. I think I need to have it replaced, but I have no idea how much it costs. Is it possible to have only one glove get replaced?
 

Pusser

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A Very Cold Fire said:
Already tried, they Haven't seen anything. I think I need to have it replaced, but I have no idea how much it costs. Is it possible to have only one glove get replaced?

Just go to your QM, file a stores loss report and tell them what happened.  They'll issue you a new pair.  You're not the first and you won't be the last to go through this.  Crap happens.  Consider that it may have fallen out at the armoury and that someone picked it up and turned it in.  One can dream!  If it is actually lost, see what I wrote above about QR&O Chapt 38.  At the very least, you should only be asked to pay 50% of the cost of a new pair.
 
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Alright, thanks for the advice! 50% sounds very reasonable. Do you think I'll be able to get them in time for BMQ in two weeks?
 

PuckChaser

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Do you not have contact info for your staff? Call your Sect Comd and explain the situation, and ask what you should do next. Nobody knows your unit/course staff, so we cannot tell you how and when you'll get new gloves or the paperwork required specifically by your course.
 

brokendude

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Just an update.  I recently was found to be responsible for the loss of my kit, even though I was literally hospitalized and not present when it went missing.  CO ordered me to pay full maximum of $250.  What a greasy move.
 

BeyondTheNow

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A Very Cold Fire said:
Already tried, they Haven't seen anything. I think I need to have it replaced, but I have no idea how much it costs. Is it possible to have only one glove get replaced?

That would require another set being split somewhere else along the line, so typically no. (Although I personally know of one instance when I worked in Supply where an item in a set was damaged and the good item was switched out to a member who was in a similar situation as you. That isn't the norm though as everything needs to be accounted for.)
 

MJP

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brokendude said:
Just an update.  I recently was found to be responsible for the loss of my kit, even though I was literally hospitalized and not present when it went missing.  CO ordered me to pay full maximum of $250.  What a greasy move.

You don't have to accept the CO's decision and can refuse.  The CO/UNIT will then need to staff it higher.
QR&O 38.03 is your friend here.  I am on mobile but do a site:army.ca search on Google for the QR&O. Some good posts out there and in this thread by Pusser earlier to your original posts
 

211RadOp

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Pusser

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brokendude said:
Just an update.  I recently was found to be responsible for the loss of my kit, even though I was literally hospitalized and not present when it went missing.  CO ordered me to pay full maximum of $250.  What a greasy move.

A commanding officer has absolutely NO authority to order that administrative deduction.  He can ask, but he can't make you.  QR&O 38.03 (Administrative Deductions) states:

(2) Subject to the other provisions of this article, where he is of the opinion that liability under article 38.01 exists and that reimbursement is warranted under the circumstances, an administrative deduction from the pay account of the officer or non-commissioned member concerned in an amount sufficient to make reimbursement in full or in part may be ordered by:

a.  a commanding officer, except when

    i.  the amount of the proposed deduction exceeds $ 200,

  ii.  the officer or non-commissioned member concerned objects on the grounds that the proposed deduction is unwarranted or excessive, or

  iii.  a loss of or deficiency in public funds is involved;


It is perhaps convoluted, but this effectively means that a CO cannot order an administrative deduction in ANY amount.  All the member has to do is object.  If the member objects, the CO has no choice but to forward this up chain of command.  QR&O 38.03 goes on to state that a Formation Commander can only ORDER a deduction of $50, a Commander of a Command $100 and the CDS $250.  At each level the member can object, which forces the issue to the next level.  The buck (well, 250 of them) only stops at the CDS.

It is also worth noting that QR&O 38.03 also states:

(3) Except as provided in paragraph (8), before any administrative deduction is ordered under paragraph (2) or increased under paragraph (9), the officer or non-commissioned member concerned shall be given the opportunity to object on the grounds that the proposed deduction is unwarranted or excessive.

(4) Where wilfulness is not involved and liability arises under subparagraph (1)(a) or (b) or paragraph (2) of article 38.01 only by reason of negligence on the part of an officer or non-commissioned member:

a.  no administrative deduction shall be imposed if the negligence is of a minor character, being negligence that does not involve recklessness, undue carelessness or intentional commission of a wrongful act or an intentional omission to perform a legal duty; or

b.  where the negligence is not of a minor character, an administrative deduction ordered under paragraph (2) shall not exceed i.where the amount involved is $ 25 or less the full amount,

  ii.  where the amount involved is more than $ 25 and not more than $ 100, one-half of the amount or $ 25 whichever is the greater,

  iii.  where the amount involved is more than $ 100 and not more than $ 300, one-third of the amount or $ 50 whichever is the greater,

  iv.  where the amount involved is more than $ 300 and not more than $ 500, one-quarter of the amount or $ 100 whichever is the greater, or

  v.  where the amount involved is more than $ 500, one-fifth of the amount or $ 125 whichever is the greater, subject to the limitation that where liability arises out of his negligence in operating a motor vehicle the deduction shall not exceed $ 250.


The CO in question (if what the OP is saying is true) seems to have missed the mark on a number of points.


 

Jarnhamar

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Question about LSRs and return policy.

A member is issued a rucksack, with all the components including pockets.

The member has to return the item but is missing a pocket.  The member is told the item complete is considered a kit so he has to put in a LSR for the whole item and would be charged money for the whole set up and not just a pocket.

If the member submits the LSR for the lost pocket/kit and has to pay whatever % for the whole kit does the member hold on to the rest of the kit since he's "paying for it" or would he have to return all the other parts, even though he's technically paying for it?
 

Pusser

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Jarnhamar said:
Question about LSRs and return policy.

A member is issued a rucksack, with all the components including pockets.

The member has to return the item but is missing a pocket.  The member is told the item complete is considered a kit so he has to put in a LSR for the whole item and would be charged money for the whole set up and not just a pocket.

If the member submits the LSR for the lost pocket/kit and has to pay whatever % for the whole kit does the member hold on to the rest of the kit since he's "paying for it" or would he have to return all the other parts, even though he's technically paying for it?

You should turn in what you have, but the loss report should explain in detail what happened.  There is no way you should (or actually can) be held accountable for the cost of the entire kit.  See the above posts.  Your CO cannot order you to pay anything (although he can ask nicely).  You always have the right to object and you can in fact offer to pay a depreciated value (i.e. the cost of the missing pocket).  There is not a Stores Section in the entire CAF that does not have a bin full of replacement parts scavenged from other rucksacks that have been turned in with missing pieces.  A replacement pocket can be found for sure!
 

krisvdv89

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I realize this post is older however I thought I try asking here.

Long story short, I'm a new guy that got all this exciting and awesome army stuff before BMQ. I was told by the store's person that they didn't have a gas mask in my size in stock and that they will call me when one comes in. In my excitement of getting all this stuff, I signed without realizing that she marked that I did get a gas mask. Fast forward a few months later I had to borrow a gas mask from my unit for BMQ and I am attempting to get a hold of a Loss and Damage kit form. My CoC is aware of my situation and I have talked to our QM. I'm getting the sense that our QM doesn't really like new guys and it has been a struggle and a half to get this form. My question is if I could just go to the clothing store and get the form from them? would this be considered stepping over the CoC?

Thank you all for your time in answering this question!

The Clueless New Guy,
 

Bzzliteyr

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krisvdv89 said:
I realize this post is older however I thought I try asking here.

Long story short, I'm a new guy that got all this exciting and awesome army stuff before BMQ. I was told by the store's person that they didn't have a gas mask in my size in stock and that they will call me when one comes in. In my excitement of getting all this stuff, I signed without realizing that she marked that I did get a gas mask. Fast forward a few months later I had to borrow a gas mask from my unit for BMQ and I am attempting to get a hold of a Loss and Damage kit form. My CoC is aware of my situation and I have talked to our QM. I'm getting the sense that our QM doesn't really like new guys and it has been a struggle and a half to get this form. My question is if I could just go to the clothing store and get the form from them? would this be considered stepping over the CoC?

Thank you all for your time in answering this question!

The Clueless New Guy,

I wouldn't consider that to be stepping over lines. You have to fill the form out and give it to your chain of command to justify the write off. At the same time, you might be able to clarify with stores about the accidental issuing of a mask. They may be able to look and see that they actually didn't have any in stock at the time and just take it off your docs.
 

krisvdv89

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Bzzliteyr said:
I wouldn't consider that to be stepping over lines. You have to fill the form out and give it to your chain of command to justify the write off. At the same time, you might be able to clarify with stores about the accidental issuing of a mask. They may be able to look and see that they actually didn't have any in stock at the time and just take it off your docs.

Understood, Thank you so much. I'm trying to navigate my way through this and be independent. I also don't want to step on any toes or go about this the wrong way.
 
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