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lf Canadians will not support me now, I am compelled to join the Taliban

Eye In The Sky

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Brihard said:
I think you're overlooking the concept of honour here- as much as honour as a guiding social force may have faded from western society since the 1800s, it's still a very powerful force within the code of Pashtunwali. I fully agree that it is the driver's fault that those children are dead, but nonetheless in a counterinsurgency we have to be sensitive to the perceptions of the population, and the father of those children now finds himself in a situation in which either compensation is expected or revenge will be sought.

Put it this way; from the standpoint of the overall mission is it better for us to generate good PR (or at least neutralize some bad PR) by compensating the man, or shall we make an enemy of him and likely some of his extended family?

Why it is US making the enemy?  He is the dickhead that put himself into this situation to get his kids killed....now he wants to profit from it???

I say let the Taliban have him.  This is a BAD precedent to set.  "Just demand money and they will give us all kinds".

Who's to say the Taliban aren't the ones putting pressure on him to get money and have it ear marked for 'other uses', say buying the crap for an IED or two?
 

Eye In The Sky

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Brihard said:
I don't think he wants to, but the norms of his culture demand that he pursue the mandated revenge if we don't do our best to right a crappy situation.

His culture, not ours...I don't think we should kiss everyone's *** just because we are Canada and Canada is nice.

We cannot look at this through our own cultural perspective
Why not?  I am not from his part of the world and if I was there, I wouldn't put my kids in a car and drive up to a convoy.

and hope to understand his point of view. You need an understanding of the Pashtun code of honour, viewed through which sense his comments make a lot of sense.

I see his point of view.  Its simple.  "Where's my money?"

I'm going to maintain that despite the ambiguity, it is probably in the interest of the CF and the mission to compensate him.

::)  Ya let's fork over some taxpayers money everytime someone threathens to join the Taliban.  ::)
 

brihard

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There is no ideal solution here, but I think you're trying to find one.

Bear in mind that the father was also a passenger. He was NOT driving the vehicle according to the article cited. He was as much a victim of this as anyone.

I'm not suggesting we fork over cash every time someone threatens to join the Taliban. I'm saying that given the circumstances of this aprticular case, it's not unreasonable for us to offer him some compensation for the loss of his children. The amount will be absolutely negligible by our standards but will go a great way towards restoring goodwill from this man and his extended family, plus whatever tribal/clan structure he belongs to. It will show that we DO value the lives of Afghan civilians.

I think also that you're losing the forest for the trees. We are fighting a counterinsurgency here; we need to get the locals on our side and keep them there. Maybe this is one of those rare military situations in which simply throwing money at a problem is actually the best and most cost effective way to reach a mutually acceptable resolution. At the end of the day the guy lost his two kids due to terrible circumstances that were not of his design. We were not a guilty or criminally responsible party to this, but we were nonetheless involved and it would be a very very minor imposition on us to provide compensation. That, in turn, would help generate good public relations among the locals, or at least mitigate bad PR generated as a result of the shooting, and would also show the locals that they do matter to us. There's no harm in this case in showing respect for how they do things and acting in accordance with those norms. Our government is certainly willing enough to hand out compensation to people here at home who are harmed even inadvertently by the government, so why not do the same thing there? If a LAV accidentally runs over some farmer's goat he can expect to receive at least a small sum to make up for it- what could possibly be the harm in providing some compensation for the loss of his kids? Hell, if you want to be really pragmatic about it they probably contributed to the family's economic activity- or certainly would have in the future.

The potential good vastly outweighs the potential harm in handling the situation this way. It also seems to me to simply be the right thing to do.
 

TheHead

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Eye In The Sky said:
His culture, not ours...I don't think we should kiss everyone's *** just because we are Canada and Canada is nice.
Why not?  I am not from his part of the world and if I was there, I wouldn't put my kids in a car and drive up to a convoy.

I see his point of view.  Its simple.  "Where's my money?"

::)  Ya let's fork over some taxpayers money everytime someone threathens to join the Taliban.  ::)

Yet we're in HIS country and have to respect HIS culture.   You don't know this mans point of view, talking out of your *** and speculating.  I have nothing but sympathy for this man, his kids were killed in a tragic accident that he had no control over. Like the poster above me said he wasn't driving.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Its not out my ass.  Who put the kids in the car?  WHo didn't make the driver stop? 

Thats not my fault, its his.  His bad choices. 

AND the bigger picture is the THREAT TO JOIN THE ENEMY.

Shake your head.  ::)
 

TheHead

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Did he know how the driver would re-act when presented in that situation? We could speculate all day.  If I drive my car into un-comming trafik and kill every person in the car is it their fault. 

Thinking like yours undermines EVERYTHING we're doing over there.
 

brihard

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Eye In The Sky said:
Its not out my ***.  Who put the kids in the car?  WHo didn't make the driver stop? 

Thats not my fault, its his.  His bad choices. 

AND the bigger picture is the THREAT TO JOIN THE ENEMY.

Shake your head.   ::)

A threat that we can very easily avoid. So why shouldn't we simply do so? Intransigence won't get us anywhere in this conflict.

Your point of view is fine for those who are already our enemy, but a much more conciliatory approach should be used towards those who are not. Particularly one whose kids we killed, even if by accident. A bit of human compassion wouldn't hurt either.
 

Eye In The Sky

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TheHead said:
Did he know how the driver would re-act when presented in that situation?   

Irrelevant.  Did the CF put his kids in that spot?

No.

Is he threatening to join the Taliban?

Yes.

Is the threat basically coming across "give me my money or I will revenge my kids death".

Yes.

I can't and am not interested in looking at it thru his eyes;  if someone killed my daughter, no amount of money would pay me off.  Thats the way I am as a Canadian and I don't really care what he says, threatening to join the Taliban if he doesn't get his money...he lost any and all sympathy from me.
 

TheHead

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We may have not put his kids in that situation BUT we did promise him compensation which he hasnt revieved. If he turns into an insurgent its our fault. 
 

brihard

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Eye In The Sky said:
Irrelevant.  Did the CF put his kids in that spot?

No.

Is he threatening to join the Taliban?

Yes.

Is the threat basically coming across "give me my money or I will revenge my kids death".

Yes.

I can't and am not interested in looking at it thru his eyes;  if someone killed my daughter, no amount of money would pay me off.  Thats the way I am as a Canadian and I don't really care what he says, threatening to join the Taliban if he doesn't get his money...he lost any and all sympathy from me.

You still insist that that issue is about money, when in fact the currency in question is this man's honour- something his society holds in much greater value.

We have said we will compensate him for his loss. As of yet he does not feel that that has been done. From his perspective, not only has he been hurt by the loss of his kids, but now we have insulted him.

Don't get me wrong- I'm fully convinced that he will receive what was promised, and I take the C.F.'s statements about this at face value. I'm just trying to offer what I feel is a fairly accurate interpretation about where this man is coming from.
 

TacticalW

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If we deny these people compensation that's just going to be one more bit of propoganda used against us promoting others to join the Taliban and one more assured Taliban insurgent. I would say give the man his compensation and if that fails and he joins the Taliban, then solve the situation by other means. I can also see where this guy was coming from, it may have been his fault for getting his kids killed, but losing your children tends to make you act irrationally. I'm sure fathers here could relate to being a bit disgruntled over suffering a similar situation.
 

1feral1

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Eye In The Sky said:
 if someone killed my daughter, no amount of money would pay me off.  

Thats the difference between us and them.

For someone to say, "give me money or I will kill you" is extortion at the least. he is at fault for the incident, and has only himself to blame.

Pay him in the form of HE, and forget about him.

OWDU
 

brihard

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Overwatch Downunder said:
Thats the difference between us and them.

For someone to say, "give me money or I will kill you" is extortion at the least. he is at fault for the incident, and has only himself to blame.

Pay him in the form of HE, and forget about him.

OWDU

The driver is at fault, not him.

Kill him and his family joins our enemy, and then what has been accomplished? Nothing.

I won't profess to be an expert in counterinsurgency, but I can't think of any instances where brute force has been particularly successful. Pareticularly not in Afghanistan.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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This is a tough call for me.......I originally thought "no way" but after listening to "The Head", who I know has been there.

Thinking....
 

1feral1

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Brihard said:
The driver is at fault, not him.

Kill him and his family joins our enemy, and then what has been accomplished? Nothing.

I won't profess to be an expert in counterinsurgency, but I can't think of any instances where brute force has been particularly successful. Pareticularly not in Afghanistan.

This quote is from the G-M article, dated 28 Jul 08. "The father, believed to have been driving the vehicle, was being treated for lacerations but left the hospital without permission to attend his children's funeral".

Regards,

OWDU
 

brihard

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Overwatch Downunder said:
This quote is from the G-M article, dated 28 Jul 08. "The father, believed to have been driving the vehicle, was being treated for lacerations but left the hospital without permission to attend his children's funeral".

Regards,

OWDU

Yup, there's conflict between some of the news stories. Other stories I've read have stated that the father and children were all passengers in a taxi. I've searched, but haven't been able to find anything concrete to clear up the ambiguity.

here's an older CBC story that identified the father, his wife and his two children all as passengers in a cab... In another news story the father says he had a job drilling (wells I guess?) to feed his family, so I take that to mean he was not a taxi driver.
 

TheHead

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I'm done with this.  I have vested interest in that beautiful country and civilians that get killed deeply saddens me, it undermines everything we do.

Keep in mind to the cowboys who make stupid comments about killing this man in any form, what kind of impression are you giving civilians, Afghans, the media and others who read these boards. Think about it.
 

armyvern

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Overwatch Downunder said:
Pay him in the form of HE, and forget about him.

More like your above won't happen ... and that's the real difference between us and them.
 

Snafu-Bar

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TheHead said:
I'm done with this.  I have vested interest in that beautiful country and civilians that get killed deeply saddens me, it undermines everything we do.

Keep in mind to the cowboys who make stupid comments about killing this man in any form, what kind of impression are you giving civilians, Afghans, the media and others who read these boards. Think about it.

Perhaps keeping in mind that the person piloting that vehicle was signalled to stop in many forms before the end result had presented itself...

This man now seeks to either strike it rich or strike back, and although i can feel sympathy that he lost his children, i cannot however fathom the fact he is dictating we canadians are solely responsible and unless we grant him his immediately he will have to take action and jopin the taliban and seek revenge. THAT part is the part that leaves many of seeking to skip the middle and jump to the end, which we all know how will turn out if it comes down to it.


Cheers.
 

George Wallace

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TheHead said:
Keep in mind to the cowboys people who make stupid comments about killing this man Canadians in any form, what kind of impression are you they giving civilians, Afghans, the media and others who read these boards. Think about it.

Think about it.  Do we have to do the Christian thing and turn the other cheek all the time and let ourselves be walked over by people who have no respect for our society or way of life?  Frankly, people can only take so much, and eventually they will react.  That things are being said, does not necessarily mean that they will be done.  It is called venting.  I am sure there is no way in the world that we would ever locate this fellow at any time in the future to drop a Nuke, Napalm, JADAM or anything else that would be fatal on his retched person.  So, I really don't care if you have had enough.  So have we all.  A threat was made.  People are responding in kind.  Live with it.
 
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