Lack of officers leaves army short of 'heart and soul'

[Humphrey Bogart]

"They" have done that:  http://www.forces.ca/en/page/payscales-131#officersregular-1

Roger, I will re-phrase.  The problem lies in the fact that by the book you are supposed to be promoted to Capt 3 years after your commissioning.  This is all fine and dandy, except that guys are being commissioned right out of basic then spending 2 1/2 to 3 years in the training system.  When they hit their units they are overdue for promotion to Capt.  Meanwhile you have another group of folks who only get commissioned once they complete university.  By this time if they are, lets say, done all their phase training, they will enter an operational unit at the same time as these other group of people, who 6 months after arriving are being promoted to Capt.

I think the money issue is irrelevant, I got my education for free, DEO's didn't so I believe they should be initially entitled to a bit more cash; however, I think a disservice is being done to them by not giving them more time as a Lt to really grasp how things work before they get thrust into a job they aren't necessarily ready for.  Who knows though, maybe their are other factors and considerations that I am missing or am unaware of.

 

[jeffb]

I do not know of anyone who spent 3 years in the training system without failing a course or suffering some serious injury. Perhaps, those that do fail a course need to have their seniority dates, and the related EPZ, amended when they fail. That being said, there is another factor in this. Generally, and generally being the operative word, DEO's tend to have a bit more life experience then ROTP types. There are exceptions on either side but I would suspect that the concept is that a 28 years old entering the CF will bring more to the table then a similarly educated 22 year old finishing high school under ROTP. Thus, the 28 year old after 3 years in the CF, albeit with only 1 year in the Regiment, should be able to handle to promotion to Capt in fairly short order given the requisite mentorship. However, I've posted already about the lack of mentorship due to the shortage of experienced Captains so I guess I am back where I started.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

The promotion clock stops if an officer is a training failure, and re-starts when they recommence the course that they failed. This does not apply, however, to medical cease-training.

The speedy promotion to Captain for DEOs does make for some odd situations. In the mists of time when the earth was cooling one could indeed assume that a Captain had some time under belt at a unit. That is no longer the case, but rest assured that new officers at the regiment are treated like new officers whether they are Captains or 2Lts.

A more pressing issue, I believe, is the experience that new officers receive during their "first tour" at their regiment/battalion. The massive throughput of the past years means that the majority are getting only a year as a Troop Leader/Platoon Commander. Two years used to be fairly standard, and I know that some guys used to get three. Balancing this, though, is the outstanding operational experience that many have received by going to war as Troop Leaders/Platoon Commanders. I think that the army is going to reap tremendous benefits over the the next fifteen to twenty years as this generation moves up.

 

[OldSolduer]

I think that the army is going to reap tremendous benefits over the the next fifteen to twenty years as this generation moves up.

It has already. LCol Mike Wright, current CO of 2VP, although not a subbie, by all accounts performed very well as a coy comd in 2006 with  the RCR (3 RCR?) BG.

Blowing my own horn here - but I was his first Pl 2I/C when he arrived fresh out of Phase trg.

 

[Journeyman]

LCol Mike Wright, current CO of 2VP, although not a subbie, by all accounts performed very well as a coy comd in 2006 with  the RCR (3 RCR?) BG.

How could a Patricia not stand out when serving with the RCR? 

 

[OldSolduer]

How could a Patricia not stand out when serving with the RCR? 

LOL by his outstanding dress and deportment? Or by his tactical acumen and outstanding people skills?

 

[dangerboy]

It has already. LCol Mike Wright, current CO of 2VP, although not a subbie, by all accounts performed very well as a coy comd in 2006 with  the RCR (3 RCR?) BG.

Blowing my own horn here - but I was his first Pl 2I/C when he arrived fresh out of Phase trg.

Jim, It was the 1 RCR BG.  I think it was more to do with his Pl Signalller  ;D

 

[Greymatters]

It used to be until they started making the Officers do NCO work more and more, with predictable results!  ;D

Unfortunately the results arent that funny - now we have a whole rank level being treated like experienced privates instead of like the mid-level leaders that they have historically been...

Im intrigued by the way you phrased that - 'started making the officers do NCO work' - was there a direct command from some higher office for officers to do the work that was previously done by Sergeants and WO's? 

 

[OldSolduer]

Unfortunately the results arent that funny - now we have a whole rank level being treated like experienced privates instead of like the mid-level leaders that they have historically been...

Im intrigued by the way you phrased that - 'started making the officers do NCO work' - was there a direct command from some higher office for officers to do the work that was previously done by Sergeants and WO's?

I'm not aware of any kind of order that said officers were supposed to do NCO work. Our domain, as WOs, Sgts, MCpls and Cpls is to take care of the 5 Ds - Drill, Dress, Deportment, Discipline and Duties. We also mentor junior officers to ensure they don't attempt ridiculous things at the expense of the troops welfare and well being.
WRT discipline - I give chats to junior officers and I tell them point blank - leave discipline to us...the WOs , Sgts and MCpls. If we need you, we'll call and keep you informed.

 

[Pusser]

Unfortunately the results arent that funny - now we have a whole rank level being treated like experienced privates instead of like the mid-level leaders that they have historically been...

Im intrigued by the way you phrased that - 'started making the officers do NCO work' - was there a direct command from some higher office for officers to do the work that was previously done by Sergeants and WO's?

Perhaps not a direct order, but from the creation of a culture that refuses to accept mistakes of any kind?  Unfortunately micro-managers who believe the only way to ensure something is done right is to do it themselves, thrive in this environment and are often rewarded with promotion to a level where they can make even more subordinates miserable.  Although I have been thanked by subordinates for letting them do their jobs, I have also been burned by my superiors for the same thing.  In other words, I have suffered because my subordinates' work did not meet the (unrealistic) textbook standard that my superiors thought it should (notwithstanding the fact that my superiors did not in fact have the experience or training to know that - such is the dilemma when your superiors are not the same occupation or even Branch as you).  In retrospect (which is always 20/20) I sometimes think that if I'd simply done it myself, I might have gotten further ahead.  On the other hand, I don't have an ulcer, I'm still married to my first wife, my kids talk and are willing to be seen in public with me and the list of past subordinates who hate me is much shorter than it could have been. 

 

[Edward Campbell]

It - pushing work "up" rather than providing more and better challenges "down" - has been going on for years.

In my opinion our problems began with Mr. Hellyer's well intentioned attempt to solve a pay problem by messing with the rank structure: making directors (first level executive) in NDQ colonels instead of lieutenant colonels (which is the appropriate rank for ALL director jobs) making lieutenants and captains equivalents, making sergeants into section commanders and making all journeyman soldiers into corporals. Don't get me wrong: his heart was in the right place - we (me when I served and you today) are all financially better of for what he did.

About 30 years ago, when in command of a unit, I tried to fight back - as did most other COs before and after me - but the system is powerful and we have, I fear, allowed some training standards to slip - i.e. what used to be on a junior NCO course is now not taught until 6A or even 6B and some officer training that used to be pre 1st posting is now a career course.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Unfortunately the results arent that funny - now we have a whole rank level being treated like experienced privates instead of like the mid-level leaders that they have historically been...

Im intrigued by the way you phrased that - 'started making the officers do NCO work' - was there a direct command from some higher office for officers to do the work that was previously done by Sergeants and WO's?

Oh yes, although we speak long, loud and proud about our 'Strategic Corporals', I would say that the day of the 'Tactical Colonel' is well ensconsced. I've got about a million examples (OK, I exagerate a little, which may be why I'm micromanaged all the time?). Images of Adolf in the bunker moving his imaginary divisions around Berlin flash to mind. And these people are frequently destined for higher command... lucky Army.  :

Of course, the typical extreme micromanager will expect the same of his/her subordinates with the result that, usually, about 50% of the leaders in any given organization will find somewhere else to serve if they can manage it, and the rest will 'quit and stay', which means that senior people have to do more and more on their own, and so the circle of suck continues.

 

[Ralph]

The promotion clock stops if an officer is a training failure, and re-starts when they recommence the course that they failed. This does not apply, however, to medical cease-training.

The speedy promotion to Captain for DEOs does make for some odd situations. In the mists of time when the earth was cooling one could indeed assume that a Captain had some time under belt at a unit. That is no longer the case, but rest assured that new officers at the regiment are treated like new officers whether they are Captains or 2Lts.

A more pressing issue, I believe, is the experience that new officers receive during their "first tour" at their regiment/battalion. The massive throughput of the past years means that the majority are getting only a year as a Troop Leader/Platoon Commander. Two years used to be fairly standard, and I know that some guys used to get three. Balancing this, though, is the outstanding operational experience that many have received by going to war as Troop Leaders/Platoon Commanders. I think that the army is going to reap tremendous benefits over the the next fifteen to twenty years as this generation moves up.

Why not get rid of the different pay scales altogether? Give DEOs a signing bonus to compensate for them having paid for their own university education (half after having completed trades training, half after having served how-many-ever years MilCol grads are under contract) and have everybody do a couple years as 2Lts? I, for one, would have appreciated a couple more years to learn the ropes...

 

[Greymatters]

Perhaps not a direct order, but from the creation of a culture that refuses to accept mistakes of any kind?  Unfortunately micro-managers who believe the only way to ensure something is done right is to do it themselves, thrive in this environment and are often rewarded with promotion to a level where they can make even more subordinates miserable.  Although I have been thanked by subordinates for letting them do their jobs, I have also been burned by my superiors for the same thing.  In other words, I have suffered because my subordinates' work did not meet the (unrealistic) textbook standard that my superiors thought it should (notwithstanding the fact that my superiors did not in fact have the experience or training to know that - such is the dilemma when your superiors are not the same occupation or even Branch as you).  In retrospect (which is always 20/20) I sometimes think that if I'd simply done it myself, I might have gotten further ahead.  On the other hand, I don't have an ulcer, I'm still married to my first wife, my kids talk and are willing to be seen in public with me and the list of past subordinates who hate me is much shorter than it could have been.

Many excellent points there, I had simlar experiences...

 

[Greymatters]

Oh yes, although we speak long, loud and proud about our 'Strategic Corporals', I would say that the day of the 'Tactical Colonel' is well ensconsced. I've got about a million examples (OK, I exagerate a little, which may be why I'm micromanaged all the time?). Images of Adolf in the bunker moving his imaginary divisions around Berlin flash to mind. And these people are frequently destined for higher command... lucky Army.  :

Of course, the typical extreme micromanager will expect the same of his/her subordinates with the result that, usually, about 50% of the leaders in any given organization will find somewhere else to serve if they can manage it, and the rest will 'quit and stay', which means that senior people have to do more and more on their own, and so the circle of suck continues.

One positive thing I can say is that it wasnt as bad in my trade as it was when working with the army units on deployment - it was always a wind sucker to find out that while i was in Canada my written declaration or signed forms were good anywhere, but as soon as I put foot down on foreign soil I had to have everything countersigned by a unit commander (who in turn wasnt too happy about it either).

 

[McG]

... making lieutenants and captains equivalents ... making all journeyman soldiers into corporals. Don't get me wrong: his heart was in the right place - we (me when I served and you today) are all financially better of for what he did.

Maybe.  Maybe he would have done us a better service to introduce a "Master Private" (or PFC) instead of the instant corporal promotion?

Given the changes that were made, what is the effect the every time someone takes a close look the military work in comparison to civilian counterparts for the purpose of setting pay?  Has the insta-cpl diluted the value of the rank such that the pay increment gained back then will eventually be eroded away?  What will be the impact on Capt pay where at the lower end it is effectively the same as Lt?  Will we see (as exists at the MCpl appointment level) the top incentive at one level being higher than the bottom incentive at the level one-up?  I know our current structure has been in place for a very long time now, so maybe I am worrying for nothing  ... but, when was the last time military ranks were compared to the PS in order to benchmark the pay?

If this is a potential real boogeyman on the horizon, then maybe we want to take a look at our structure before that happens - to set ourselves for success.  I have previously suggested (although 50% tounge-in-cheek) that we move to a new system that does away with insta-ranks.

 

[dogger1936]

Heart and soul...I recommend bass guitars and more jazz hands.

 

[PanaEng]

Heart and soul...I recommend bass guitars and more jazz hands.

don't forget more cowbell
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/80a71ef8cb/more-cowbell

 

[ModlrMike]

Solved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwrYMWoqg5w

 

[Pusser]

Ahh the 80s!  Will we ever see hair like that again?