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July 2018: 8 Shot in Toronto

EpicBeardedMan

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Colin P said:
Considering this I would be surprised if he had a PAL

I can almost guarantee he does not have a PAL. Most likely positive FIP on cpic/cni which would block him from getting through any paperwork for a PAL.
 

Jarnhamar

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Pushing the mental health + gun problem angle. 

"The police are doing their best, but they're operating under extraordinarily difficult circumstances to deal with these guns," the mayor said. "We'll see what they conclude from this case, but it's evidence of a gun problem, clearly."




I seen some pictures on FB and Twitter of a profile with someone with the same name that look like they're from an ISIS training camp. Won't post them until it seems like there's more evidence of a connection than just a name.

 

Haggis

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Jarnhamar said:
Many CCW permit holders in the US manage to effectively use their pistols to dissuade criminals or engage active shooters. I'm going to guess many that do don't have 15,000 rounds under their belt but they defend themselves well enough.

Sometimes, the display of a CCW holder's firearm can deescalate an encounter better than firing a shot.

The other thing that gets overlooked in the CCW debate is judgement.  Knowing how to shoot is important.  Knowing WHEN to shoot, or, equally when NOT to shoot. is sometimes more important than marksmanship and pistol handling which is the focus of much of the CCW debate.

I had an interesting and shocking discussion with an American friend who is a CCW permit holder in a "shall issue" state.  i asked him if his state required any type of training.  The answer was "no".  I asked if he had any liability insurance (state or private) to rely on should he be sued after a shooting.  he said "I suppose my house insurance would cover me."

Another friend, an expat Canadian and former Infantry Sgt is also a CCW holder in a different state.  His state requires he demonstrate dry and live fire proficiency, participate in judgement scenarios and show proof of liability insurance.
 

Good2Golf

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What about striker-fire pistols? No where to stick a thumb-finger web or anything else in to block the firing pin.
 

Fishbone Jones

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Good2Golf said:
What about striker-fire pistols? No where to stick a thumb-finger web or anything else in to block the firing pin.

Push the slide out of battery.

I was talking revolvers. The technique I described is a common one. Regardless of what others may think. Something that was  taught to me over 40 years ago that I have seen on many other occasions.
 

larry Strong

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Interesting article......

The man who has presented himself as the point of contact for the family of Faisal Hussain is a professional activist who has reportedly committed himself to “framing a new narrative of Muslims in Canada” and creating a “national political movement.”

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/furey-meet-the-spin-doctor-behind-the-hussain-family-statement?video_autoplay=true


Cheers
Larry
 

Jarnhamar

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Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale says there is no known connection between the Toronto shooting suspect and national security concerns, and that the Trudeau government is prepared to consider a proposal to ban handguns.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-feds-prepared-to-consider-proposal-to-ban-handguns-goodale-says/

Ralph says no known connections to national security concerns.
Maybe police were talking to the shooter about his grammar or posting memes.
 

Retired AF Guy

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Jarnhamar said:
Ralph says no known connections to national security concerns.

Joe Warmington over at the Toronto Sun seems to be saying something different, however, what he is reporting has not been confirmed.

WARMINGTON: Was Danforth attack terror, or terrorism?

Joe Warmington Updated:July 24, 2018 10:12 AM EDT

It was terror on the Danforth no question.

But was it terrorism?

In the hours following the evil carnage that took the lives of two girls, just 10 and 18 and wounded 14 others in a merciless flurry of gunfire along the restaurant-lined streets of Greektown, a complicated picture is emerging of 29-year-old Faisal Hussain, who also died after exchanging gunfire with police.

His family released a statement to CBC News expressing their “deepest condolences” to victims and their families,  saying their son struggled with “severe mental health challenges.“

Meanwhile, my law-enforcement sources confirm investigators are looking at every avenue — including a potential jihadi-inspired mission.

Files being reviewed by police include concern Hussain expressed “support” for a website that was seen as “pro-ISIL,” says a law enforcement source.

Sources say police in Toronto and CSIS officials in Ottawa, as well as the RCMP, are looking into his past, which sources say include his residence in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Hussain apparently had been spoken to by authorities about his online activities. Sources say Toronto Police, the OPP and the RCMP have all had an interest in the now-deceased shooter.

What law enforcement is saying is that the attack was planned, and Hussain was “well known to Toronto Police” for investigations into past crimes “involving weapons and violence.”

He was also known to hang out behind his building at 43 Thorncliffe Park Blvd. with a group of 20 friends.

“Police were called once because they thought Faisal was carrying a gun,” said someone who was there. “No gun was found.”

Meanwhile, Hussain’s family emailed a statement to CBC News outlining a life-long struggle with mental illness, depression and psychosis.

“We are utterly devastated by the incomprehensible news that our son was responsible for the senseless violence and loss of life that took place on the Danforth,” the statement read.

“While we did our best to seek help for him throughout his life of struggle and pain, we could never imagine that this would be his devastating and destructive end.

“Our hearts are in pieces for the victims and for our city as we all come to grips with this terrible tragedy. We will mourn those who were lost for the rest of our lives.”

A neighbour living near the apartment where Hussain lived with his parents said Faisal told him he previously worked in a bakery and as a grocer. While some friends said he was “not at all radical,” others said he was more interested in Islamic discussions “when there were more people around.”

At the 65 Mussallah Mosque near the building, Abubaker Patel said he knew Faisal’s father well, calling him “the nicest guy in the world.” The elder Hussain is in Sunnybrook Hospital and his other son has been in a coma for the past year, Patel said.

Faisal, he suggested, has lived alone in the apartment in the meantime.

Sources say the deceased shooter’s personal life is being explored — including searching his family’s residence in Unit 707 in the Thorncliffe apartment building.

Police executed a search warrant Monday and were set to hunt for what they were told could be a stockpile of weapons and perhaps explosives. They were also interested in computers and hard drives.

While police made clear they have not ruled out any motives, the investigation will undoubtedly uncover the broken pieces of a life that ended in senseless violence and death.

Little comfort to his victims, or to a city struggling to make sense of this tragedy.

jwarmington@postmedia.com

Article Link



 

OldSolduer

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I thought the family’s statement about this shooter and his mental illness was released quickly and IMO was well worded.......

Edit to add:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/furey-meet-the-spin-doctor-behind-the-hussain-family-statement

I’m starting to get a tad upset on how our government and media molly coddle terrorists and criminals.
 

Jarnhamar

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Retired AF Guy said:
Joe Warmington over at the Toronto Sun seems to be saying something different, however, what he is reporting has not been confirmed.

Seen that.

Goodale is quick to say there's no links to national security, is the investigation already over? Nope. I think he's cleverly meaning there's no "100%" connection "right now", happy to mislead readers. Same way the government tried to mislead people about bill C71.

Speaking of which, the investigation isn't over but he's already talking about a proposed handgun ban. Didn't waste much time there.

What the police apparently are saying definitely isn't what Goodale seems to be pushing.


Hamish Seggie said:
I thought the family’s statement about this shooter and his mental illness was released quickly and IMO was well worded.......

That was my first impression too.  Super scripted and lawyery.  When I see that scripted response along with this guys apparent online activity, history and criminal record I feel comfortable calling bull shit on the families "we're so surprised, we're totally shocked" attempt.

 

dimsum

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Another perspective:

Terry Glavin: #TorontoStrong can be strong enough to support the shooter's family, too
If people cannot find it within themselves to extend the same compassion to the Hussains that is being shown victims' families, they should be ashamed

To try to look on the bright side, maybe the reason last weekend’s Danforth shooting rampage has pushed some people into an abyss of hysteria is that Toronto truly is one of the world’s great peaceable cities, and the horror of what happened has been just too much of a shock. Maybe it’s got something to do with the ubiquity of rancid disinformation and malicious pseudo-news these days that a meanness and heartlessness so quickly intruded into what was, in the early goings, a moment of shared mourning, a “Toronto Strong” moment of quiet civic decency and resilience.

Maybe the simple, ugly reason that so little sympathy has been on hand for the parents of the severely mentally ill and now-dead shooter — they have another son who has been in a coma for more than a year, and their daughter died in a car accident about five years ago — is that they are Muslim. Or maybe it’s just because it was their son who committed the unconscionable act, that their own crushing anguish and sorrow is cruelly dismissed as somehow less deserving of any public sympathy.


https://nationalpost.com/opinion/terry-glavin-torontostrong-needs-to-prove-itself-by-embracing-the-shooters-parents?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1532537691
 

Jarnhamar

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Cross posting with the gun control thread a little.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/toronto-shooter-s-gun-was-illegal-originally-from-u-s-source-1.4027129#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=Facebook&_gsc=EKwgxNe
The gun used to shoot 15 people on a busy Toronto street was likely obtained from a “gang-related source,” according to a person familiar with the case.

CP24 safety specialist Cam Woolley says a police source has told him the semi-automatic handgun used in the shooting is illegal in Canada and was originally from the United States. American authorities are helping track the gun’s exact origin.


So we have an American gun that was illegally brought to Canada. What is Toronto's solution?

https://globalnews.ca/news/4351297/toronto-handgun-ammunition-ban/
Toronto city council urges upper levels of government to ban sale of guns, ammunition locally
Toronto city council is calling on the upper levels of government to ban the sale of guns and ammunition locally.

In a 41-to-four vote, city council voted to “urge” the federal government to ban handgun sales in Toronto. It also called on the provincial government to ban handgun ammunition sales in the city.

Shooter doesn't have a gun license, cannot legally buy guns or ammo in Canada, obtained a gun illegally which was apparently  brought IN from the US. So the solution is to ban legal handgun sales in Toronto to legal handgun owners.

In the classic words of Ralph Wiggum "I'm helping".

Further more from the first link.
CTV News has further learned that ammunition and large-capacity magazines were found by police officers searching the apartment Faisal Hussain shared with his parents. Police are also looking into the connection between Hussain’s brother, who is currently in a coma, and a 2017 seizure of more than 30 guns in Pickering, Ont.

More ammunition, illegal magazines (not that there's a huge difference between 10 and 15 round mags), those "clueless parents" and a brother who had 30 guns that were seized. Guessing they weren't legally owned.

Yet who does the Toronto council and Liberal want to want to target? Low hanging fruit because it's easy and makes it look like the city is doing something.

And that's not just woe as me poor hard done by gun owner talking, the logic of this is just retarded.

More and more that family looks shady as shit.
 

garb811

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Jarnhamar said:
Cross posting with the gun control thread a little
...

Which brings up a point; the gun control debate belongs in the Great Gun Control Debate 2.0 thread.

While it is natural there is a bit of overlap in this instance, please try to maintain a separation so that we don’t end up having to go through cleaning up this thread by moving purely gun control debate into that one.

Thanks!

- milnet.ca Staff
 

RocketRichard

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garb811 said:
Which brings up a point; the gun control debate belongs in the Great Gun Control Debate 2.0 thread.

While it is natural there is a bit of overlap in this instance, please try to maintain a separation so that we don’t end up having to go through cleaning up this thread by moving purely gun control debate into that one.

Thanks!

- milnet.ca Staff
Good points. My bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

brihard

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Borrowing my own reply on this from elsehwere:

Part of Daesh's MO is to claim anything they can. Notably in this case there seems to have been no manifesto, no claim fro the shooter himself, and no claim from Daesh or their ilk concurrent with the event itself. It only came after unidentified police sources quoted in some questionable media alleged that he had some 'interesting' internet activity... Which in and of itself means little.

So at this point we have Daesh saying 'it was us'. We on the contrary have Toronto police saying they have nothing indicating that to be true, and we have the federal minister of public safety's office saying that at this point there is no evident national security nexus.

While I will not speculate about this investigation, I can say with confidence that with this amount of time elapsed it would be reasonable to expect that police have been able to execute search warrants on his residence and have done at least a preliminary extraction and examination of such things as the contents of his computer and potentially other digital devices they have likely had time to examine such things as internet search and browsing history, social media presence, etc. At this point in time if there was a reasonably evident extremist link, it would be reasonable to surmise that police have had ample opportunity to at least preliminarily identify it- enough so, at least, that any wise spokesperson would shy away from denying that one exists.

So I guess it comes down to who you trust more- Daesh; or Toronto Police as well as the department of public safety (encompassing CSIS, RCMP, etc).

There seems to be mounting evidence that he lived at least on the fringes of typical street gang BS, likely had easy enough access to guns through same, and that his brother may have been involved with such matters more deeply and that said brother illegally possessed firearms.

I do not consider the fact that he hit people at close range with a pistol to be evidence of more in terms of training, certainly not any training provided for the intent of terrorism. It isn't hard to teach someone how to feed a handgun, and if you fire enough shots into crowded environments, you will get hits, some of which may be fatal.

It is certainly not impossible nor even implausible that ideological radicalization was a contributing or causal factor. Nor is it implausible tat it wasn't. I personally wait to see evidence of such things, and thus far little if any has been presented, and agencies who know the facts will come out close to fully in time have said that they believe it is not. I consider that more credible than an unsubstantiated Daesh 'we did it'.
 

larry Strong

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Turns out he had a .40 caliber handgun and seven magazines of rounds. 3 full mags remaining when he died.....

https://torontosun.com/news/crime/warmington-danforth-shooter-was-armed-for-war-cops-say?video_autoplay=true

To my inexperienced eye he sure moved and handled himself proficiently . And 20 rounds fired with 14 hits on the move.........amateur hour...I think not....


Cheers
Larry
 

brihard

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Larry Strong said:
Turns out he had a .40 caliber handgun and seven magazines of rounds. 3 full mags remaining when he died.....

https://torontosun.com/news/crime/warmington-danforth-shooter-was-armed-for-war-cops-say?video_autoplay=true

To my inexperienced eye he sure moved and handled himself proficiently . And 20 rounds fired with 14 hits on the move.........amateur hour...I think not....


Cheers
Larry

I assume you're basing that on the small snippet of video- which yes, did show him taking a pretty decent stance for a couple shots. Where are you getting that he was firing on the move vice doing what we saw him do?

Not to say that him having some shooting proficiency is incompatible with any of the other stuff. Gang members and other criminals go to the range too, and it's not difficult or particularly expensive to get taught to shoot at least with a modest amount of proficiency. The very article you quote states police believed him to have fired 40-60 rounds. 2 dead and 12 more wounded isn't at all an outlandish number for that number of rounds fired into evening crowds at restaurants.

All that to say- nothing I've yet seen suggests to me from my experience that he was the recipient of some sort of special training. I would also caution you not to assume that mentally ill means someone is not capable of physical proficiency in mechanical tasks. A person can be in the grips of psychosis, depression, or whatever and still extremely capable of doing things they have previously learned to do.
 

Haggis

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Brihard said:
All that to say- nothing I've yet seen suggests to me from my experience that he was the recipient of some sort of special training. I would also caution you not to assume that mentally ill means someone is not capable of physical proficiency in mechanical tasks. A person can be in the grips of psychosis, depression, or whatever and still extremely capable of doing things they have previously learned to do.

There's many other ways one can acquire "firearms" proficiency.  AirSoft, for example.  And not knowing how long he had this gun (or any others) we can assume by his observed (by police) skills that he developed proficiency before hand, likely through dry pistol handling prior to going live.  This clearly shows a high degree of premeditation.

Marksmanship skills can be developed in the virtual worlds as well.  Some studies out of the US show that gamers involved in gunfights are more likely to take head shots due to the higher point value of a head shot in some video games. Also, many game platforms illustrate a perfect sight picture every time you "aim" your virtual weapon.
 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=Haggis]

Marksmanship skills can be developed in the virtual worlds as well.  Some studies out of the US show that gamers involved in gunfights are more likely to take head shots due to the higher point value of a head shot in some video games. Also, many game platforms illustrate a perfect sight picture every time you "aim" your virtual weapon.
[/quote]

I was actually going to post about the same exact studies. They found some gamers-turn-shooters, despite no firearms training, had better accuracy than some responding police I believe?

I think this is a wake up call that our border agents need way more resources, money and manpower.

I'm not sure what the police might be able to do to help, maybe more resources to monitor high risk people?



 
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