Jeans & mass punishment? #2

[Downhiller229]

- If you have access to funds to pay for the Seneca route, good for you.
- 4 years of pensionable time = ability to retire from the CAF sooner with a 27 year career, ahead of the Seneca method.
- Networking. It's been often observed, RMC graduates are better networked than DEO.

The pros and cons of an entry plan are highly individual, based on the choices a young person has available to them.

Seneca is paid education, 100% pensionable time from time of enrolment and given a commission following BMOQ which takes place before their first semester of school. By the time they go for their last year of school they are winged captains.

So are those officers the same as RMC grads? If so there needs to be more incentive, pay or otherwise to get the top candidates to attend that institution. On top of the changes in culture that are being made.

I'm not trying to bash the institution, and i will reiterate that I do not support the method of protest of the cadets. However it really brings out the unfortunate reality that the prestige doesn't quite cut it anymore. 

 

[winnipegoo7]

- If you have access to funds to pay for the Seneca route, good for you.
- 4 years of pensionable time = ability to retire from the CAF sooner with a 27 year career, ahead of the Seneca method.
- Networking. It's been often observed, RMC graduates are better networked than DEO.

The pros and cons of an entry plan are highly individual, based on the choices a young person has available to them.

**edit -someone beat me to it

I think you’re ill informed. Seneca occurs under the CEOTP entry. The deal is you go to basic as an OCDT and get commissioned as 2lt upon completion of basic. Then you do PFT. Then you do 1 year subsidized training at Seneca as a 2LT. Then you do more pilot training and then back to Seneca.

The time at Seneca is full salary as a 2LT.  It is pensionable and you can network with all the other pilots at Seneca.  It is a very quick way to become a qualified captain pilot. much sooner than an RMC pilot.

These Seneca guys are going to be the next generation of RCAF leaders. If you want to be a pilot Seneca is the way to go. 

From the RCAF website:

The new Continuing Education Officer Training Plan (CEOTP) – Pilot program has been designed to graduate a winged pilot with a Bachelor of Aviation Technology degree in just four years. That’s three years less time than it takes for a student to achieve the same qualifications at Royal Military College in Kingston, Ontario.

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/article-template-standard.page?doc=rcaf-and-seneca-college-accelerate-military-pilot-training/hrhjdzop

 

[daftandbarmy]

**edit -someone beat me to it

I think you’re ill informed. Seneca occurs under the CEOTP entry. The deal is you go to basic as an OCDT and get commissioned as 2lt upon completion of basic. Then you do PFT. Then you do 1 year subsidized training at Seneca as a 2LT. Then you do more pilot training and then back to Seneca.

The time at Seneca is full salary as a 2LT.  It is pensionable and you can network with all the other pilots at Seneca.  It is a very quick way to become a qualified captain pilot. much sooner than an RMC pilot.

These Seneca guys are going to be the next generation of RCAF leaders. If you want to be a pilot Seneca is the way to go. 

From the RCAF website:

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/article-template-standard.page?doc=rcaf-and-seneca-college-accelerate-military-pilot-training/hrhjdzop

Thanks a lot.

Yet another reason that I'm p*ssed that I'm too old to do the cool stuff they've come out with more recently than the MkIII boot's initial issue

 

[Jarnhamar]

While I've said several times I don't condone going to media,

Reeeeeally?

 

[stellarpanther]

Reeeeeally?

Really.

 

[pbi]

Ahh so you agree with me then.

Are you aware that out of high school I can choose to go to Seneca college to become a CF pilot. Earning commission at 18 years old and becoming a captain shortly after earning my pilot wings at ~21 years old? So are the Seneca officers a lesser caliber then the ones who spent 4 years at RMC? How do you justify spending 4 years as an officer cadet when you could be a 2Lt and a captain years before someone who started RMC the same day as you? It has to be difficult to motivate people to go in that environment when you give out such a sweet deal on the other side. So yeah it's apples and oranges but not according to the CAF

Yes but, as I pointed out (not very effectively, it seems...), RMC is just one way to produce officers. I did not come up by that system, and I made it clear that RMC officers are not automatically better officers just because they went to that institution. When I graduated from the Infantry School, my peers around me on the parade were OCTP, OCTP(M), DEO, CFR, RESO and Mil Col. Nobody was automatically a better officer just because of their commissioning program. That isn't my argument.

I would argue that Seneca and RMC are still apples and oranges. A limited program to address a particular shortage of officers with a specific technical skill is not in any way the same as an institution which was created to shape the whole officer as a professional.

Now, whether RMC has done a very good job of that, or not, is a good question.  Haaving spent the last decade in Kingston as part of the military community, I have had my doubts. Humphrey Bogart and others have confirmed some of these doubts. But good people are working to fix the place, and produce officers who have the character and discipline to be leaders, not just technicians.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

And pretty much any moron can fly a plane......few and far between are good leaders of men/women.

 

[AKa]

I'm assuming that Seneca students don't have compulsory language classes?

Bilingualism points make a big difference in career paths these days.

 

[Good2Golf]

And pretty much any moron can fly a plane......few and far between are good leaders of men/women.

:nod:

It's a technical skill on its own, and many nations employ varying structures of non-commissioned members to do so -- the technical side does not need officership, many (myself included) would argue.  Nothing special about t, just exacting with little room for error, but that's it.

G2G

 

[JesseWZ]

While I've said several times I don't condone going to media, what can they do if they are trying to get change or bring attention to what they believe is unfair treatment and the CoC refuses to listen.  I know there are policies against going to the media but I've heard civilians wonder out loud what the CAF is afraid of if they think they are right.

Reeeeeally?

Really.

It kind of seems like you actually do condone going to the media, as long as it is the course of last resort. In response to "the civilians you heard wonder out loud," the CF has nothing to be afraid of, but it expects people to follow the rules.

The problem with every Tom, Dick and Harry having the opportunity to jump in front of the camera is that many of them are misinformed, uninformed, or just have an axe to grind. Think of the membership on this board. If we take a cross section of board membership and give them media privileges - do you think accurate information is going to get out? Or will it be contradictory, poorly researched, or possibly even inflammatory?

In the CFNIS, we deal with sensitive often serious cases. Often, media lines need to be drafted and the PAO in consultation with the case manager is the vetting authority for those lines. Would I want every MP with access to the information to be able to speak to it in front of the camera? Absolutely not. Often they aren't privy to all the available information in order to make an informed opinion. As I've seen here, too many people have an axe to grind and come out swinging without all the information, or choose to release selective information in order to influence opinion.

If the OCdts are truly unable to effect change - to whit - jeans, in their institution, and they feel they need to use the media as a cudgel, I would suggest they instead take their release and give themselves the privilege of wearing jeans all day, everyday.

 

[MAJONES]

Seneca Program and NCM pilot discussion now in separate thread.

RMC and dress code discussion in this thread.

Carry On.

 

[stellarpanther]

It kind of seems like you actually do condone going to the media, as long as it is the course of last resort. In response to "the civilians you heard wonder out loud," the CF has nothing to be afraid of, but it expects people to follow the rules.

The problem with every Tom, Dick and Harry having the opportunity to jump in front of the camera is that many of them are misinformed, uninformed, or just have an axe to grind. Think of the membership on this board. If we take a cross section of board membership and give them media privileges - do you think accurate information is going to get out? Or will it be contradictory, poorly researched, or possibly even inflammatory?

In the CFNIS, we deal with sensitive often serious cases. Often, media lines need to be drafted and the PAO in consultation with the case manager is the vetting authority for those lines. Would I want every MP with access to the information to be able to speak to it in front of the camera? Absolutely not. Often they aren't privy to all the available information in order to make an informed opinion. As I've seen here, too many people have an axe to grind and come out swinging without all the information, or choose to release selective information in order to influence opinion.

If the OCdts are truly unable to effect change - to whit - jeans, in their institution, and they feel they need to use the media as a cudgel, I would suggest they instead take their release and give themselves the privilege of wearing jeans all day, everyday.

I posted what I've heard others or civilians comment on but it doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with the decision.  Sometimes trying to read between the lines doesn't work.  I am saying that I don't support going to the media.  If mbr's have concerns, there are other legal avenues that can be taken.  I'll say it one more time.  I don't support violating ANY regulations.

 

[Haggis]

I'm assuming that Seneca students don't have compulsory language classes?

Bilingualism points make a big difference in career paths these days.

Indeed bilingualism is important, more so as one increases in rank.  It's quite probably much more difficult to find and fit in SLT in Toronto after school hours than it is to receive it at RMC.

Para 5.1 of CEOTP DAOD (5002-6) reads: "5.1 Professional development policy, which includes second language requirements, is set out in DAOD 5031-8, Canadian Forces Professional Development."  So, in very broad terms, the requirements to meet all other criteria of the Officer General Specifications (OGS) remain.

Like NCM SEP focuses on the Red Seal trades, the Seneca training seems to be focused solely on the technical skills of being a pilot. Everything else required by DAOD 5031-8 is left up to the individual, supported by his University Liaison Office.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

It kind of seems like you actually do condone going to the media, as long as it is the course of last resort. In response to "the civilians you heard wonder out loud," the CF has nothing to be afraid of, but it expects people to follow the rules.

The problem with every Tom, Dick and Harry having the opportunity to jump in front of the camera is that many of them are misinformed, uninformed, or just have an axe to grind. Think of the membership on this board. If we take a cross section of board membership and give them media privileges - do you think accurate information is going to get out? Or will it be contradictory, poorly researched, or possibly even inflammatory?

In the CFNIS, we deal with sensitive often serious cases. Often, media lines need to be drafted and the PAO in consultation with the case manager is the vetting authority for those lines. Would I want every MP with access to the information to be able to speak to it in front of the camera? Absolutely not. Often they aren't privy to all the available information in order to make an informed opinion. As I've seen here, too many people have an axe to grind and come out swinging without all the information, or choose to release selective information in order to influence opinion.

If the OCdts are truly unable to effect change - to whit - jeans, in their institution, and they feel they need to use the media as a cudgel, I would suggest they instead take their release and give themselves the privilege of wearing jeans all day, everyday.

And I guess RMC students simply don't get the same lecture they give in BMQ. Paraphrasing of course, "If you're not authorized, don't speak to the media about anything. And/but if they approach you, this is what you're allowed to say..." It was pretty clear.

 

[mariomike]

Paraphrasing of course, "If you're not authorized, don't speak to the media about anything. And/but if they approach you, this is what you're allowed to say..." It was pretty clear.

Sounds like good advice for anyone wishing to avoid career suicide.

Reminds me of something I read many years ago. ( The language could use modernization, but I believe the message is still true. )

"If you work for a man, in heaven's name work for him. If he pays you wages which supply you bread and butter, work for him; speak well of him; stand by him, and stand by the institution he represents. If put to a pinch, an ounce of loyalty is worth a pound of cleverness. If you must vilify, condemn, and eternally disparage, resign your position, and when you are outside, damn to your heart's content, but as long as you are part of the institution do not condemn it. If you do that, you are loosening the tendrils that are holding you to the institution, and at the first high wind that comes along, you will be uprooted and blown away, and will probably never know the reason why."
Elbert Hubbard

 

[X Royal]

Just my opinion but when loyalty is earned it's precious.
When bought by a pay check it's not that valuable.
No value also leads to no guarantee it will last.