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Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)

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jollyjacktar

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E.R. Campbell said:
I think many "moderate" Muslims have some - not a lot, but some - sympathy for those who are said to be victims of Western aggression. It is all too easy to forget that many Western interventions have been to protect Muslims - the Balkans, for example - because in so many cases all we see and hear, in the Western media, are reports of Muslim victims of violence. It is too easy to ignore the fact, and it is a fact, that many (most?) Muslims are victims of Muslim violence.

We know that there was considerable, collective blame levied at Muslims - it wasn't from official Washington, or London, or Ottawa, but it was there all the same.  It's a bit hard to blame many Muslims for being both a bit defensive and a bit confused; they are told, in one breath, that we're all equal and all religions are equally safe and free and then, in the next breath, they're told that they cannot build a cultural centre too close to "ground zero," the site of the former World Trade Center.

In Asia moderate Muslims are under increasing pressure to Arabize their worship and even their general cultural practices. Middle Eastern social mores are being imposed - not just dress codes for women, which are not, I'm assured by well educated Muslims, mandated in the Qur'an, but customs that are quite foreign to both Islam and Asia. That's why I think a Muslim Reformation might begin in Indonesia or, more likely, Malaysia.

But what I think we see, here, in North America, is confusion: "moderate" Muslims are, themselves, confused by the mixed messages we - the established, mainly Christian majority - send to them and also by the decidedly mixed messages they hear in their mosques and read in community newspapers. Much of the Muslim leadership seems convinced that only imans and mullahs who were trained in the Middle East or Iran are acceptable - if we're going to limit foreign workers we could, usefully, start by restricting foreign preachers.

As others have said, it's had for anyone to speak out when the majority is silent; it's harder when there is a minority that opposes or harasses those who do speak out. We should not expect more of Muslims than we see from Christians - who are not famous for opposing the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Karadzic and Mladic.

Well said, ER.  I especially like the thought of keeping these hate preachers out of Canada.  We don't want to get to the state the UK finds itself in now with these assclowns causing no end of trouble and no way to get rid of them.  Any foreigner who comes here and trys to sow hate should find themselves on a one way flight back to whence the came immediately.  Just like in Monopoly, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.  Immediate enforcement, no BS or waffle.  If we can't stamp them out, kick them out.
 

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E.R. Campbell said:
...if we're going to limit foreign workers we could, usefully, start by restricting foreign preachers.

As much as I agree, the reality is that there are too many "social activists" who would quickly label us racist; especially the current government. Once you throw out the "R" word, all rational discussion ceases.
 

George Wallace

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ModlrMike said:
As much as I agree, the reality is that there are too many "social activists" who would quickly label us racist; especially the current government. Once you throw out the "R" word, all rational discussion ceases.

Yes.  It is a sad fact that our Charter of Human Rights and our Legal System bends over backwards to protect the "Rights" of these scum.  If I had my chance to run a "Police State", I would strip them of their passports, whether they were Canadian citizens who immigrated here, or native born, and send them to an Islamist nation of my choosing.  They do not recognize our Laws, unless they are used to protect them.  They don't want to integrate into our multi-cultural society.  They want to convert us all to their religion and Sharia Law.  Then what the frack are they doing in a Western nation?  Send them to a state that reflects their beliefs.  They do not deserve to be Canadians, Americans, Mexicans, Brits, Germans, Danes, Swedes, Aussies, etc. 

Is that Racism or protecting our society from violence and chaos?  It is "Harsh Love".  Everyone gets to live an existing nation, in the society that their beliefs dictate.

Then again, I will not likely be running a "Police State" in any reality.  :)

I have to put up with a reality that I live in a society that caters more to the perpetrators, than to the victims.  Such is our lot. :peace:
 

OldSolduer

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ModlrMike said:
As much as I agree, the reality is that there are too many "social activists" who would quickly label us racist; especially the current government. Once you throw out the "R" word, all rational discussion ceases.
Then we need to counter attack the social activists.

Give concrete examples of radical preachers who immigrate here and spread their poison. Expose them for the frauds they are and deport them.

Deport the bad apples, as soon as legally possible.

For those "Canadian" who choose to live their "old country" and want a free lift home when crap hits the fan.....I say you made your own bed, you lie in it. Make your own way back to Canada.

Oh and by the way, my mum, all 92 years of her, is an immigrant. My grandad and grand up on my Dad's side were immigrants.
 

Brad Sallows

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Political history should be enough to convince people that it doesn't take a large faction to apply enough pressure to keep a moderate majority in check and unsure of itself (the moderate majority).

>Islam is about submission and that allows it to be abused and people to be reluctant to question Fatwa's and edicts.

Yet: Islam is a religion in which, as I understand it, the imams are unnecessary.  There is no need for any intercessor between God and one of the faithful.  The opinion of imams is a nice-to-have, not a necessity.  The Koran has been written; it can be read.  It doesn't need to be interpreted by a third party.
 

Colin Parkinson

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2 Cdo said:
Exactly what race is islam?  ::)

Well the Arabs do claim they are the "true Muslims" and that everyone should follow their example as they were chosen by Allah.
 

Edward Campbell

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Former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair speaks out on the "problem within Islam" in this column which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Mail on Sunday:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2334560/The-ideology-Lee-Rigbys-murder-profound-dangerous-Why-dont-admit--Tony-Blair-launches-brave-assault-Muslim-extremism-Woolwich-attack.html
The ideology behind Lee Rigby's murder is profound and dangerous. Why don't we admit it?:
Tony Blair launches a brave assault on Muslim extremism after Woolwich attack


By TONY BLAIR

PUBLISHED: 01:01 GMT, 2 June 2013

There is only one view of the murder of Lee Rigby: horrific. But there are two views of its significance.

One is that it is the act of crazy people, motivated in this case by a perverted idea about Islam, but of no broader significance.

Crazy people do crazy things. So don’t overreact.

The other view is that this act was indeed horrible; and that the ideology which inspired it is profound and dangerous.
I am of this latter view.

So of course we shouldn’t overreact. We didn’t after July 7, 2005. But we did act. And we were right to. The actions by our security services will undoubtedly have prevented other serious attacks.

The ‘Prevent’ programme in local communities was sensible. The new measures of the Government seem reasonable and proportionate.

However, we are deluding ourselves if we believe that we can protect this country simply by what we do here. The ideology is out there. It isn’t diminishing.

Consider the Middle East. As of now, Syria is in a state of accelerating disintegration. President Assad is brutally pulverising communities hostile to his regime. At least 80,000 have died. The refugees now total more than one million. The internally displaced are more than four million.

Many in the region believe that the Assad intention is to ethnically cleanse the Sunni from the areas dominated by his regime and then form a separate state around Lebanon. There would then be a de facto Sunni state in the rest of Syria, cut off from the wealth of the country or the sea.

The Syrian opposition is made up of many groups. The fighters are increasingly the Al Qaeda- affiliated group Jabhat al-Nusra. They are winning support, and arms and money from outside the country.

Assad is using chemical weapons on a limited but deadly scale. Some of the stockpiles are in fiercely contested areas.

The overwhelming desire of the West is to stay out of it. This is completely understandable. But we must also understand: we are at the beginning of this tragedy. Its capacity to destabilise the region is clear.

Jordan is behaving with exemplary courage, but there is a limit to the refugees it can reasonably be expected to absorb. Lebanon is now fragile as Iran pushes Hezbollah into the battle. Al Qaeda is back trying to cause carnage in Iraq and Iran continues its gruesome meddling there.

To the South in Egypt and across North Africa, Muslim Brotherhood parties are in power, but the contradiction between their ideology and their ability to run modern economies means that they face growing instability and pressure from more extreme groups.

Then there is the Iranian regime, still intent on getting a nuclear weapon, still exporting terror and instability to the West and the east of it. In sub-Saharan Africa, Nigeria is facing awful terror attacks. In Mali, France has been fighting a pretty tough battle.

And we haven’t mentioned Pakistan or Yemen. Go to the Far East and look at the western border between Burma and Bangladesh. Look at recent events in Bangladesh itself, or the Mindanao dispute in the Muslim region of the Philippines.

In many of the most severely affected areas, one other thing is apparent: a rapidly growing population. The median age in the Middle East is in the mid-20s. In Nigeria it’s 19. In Gaza, where Hamas hold power, a quarter of the population is under five.

When I return to Jerusalem soon, it will be my 100th visit to the Middle East since leaving office, working to build a Palestinian state. I see first-hand in this region what is happening.

So I understand the desire to look at this world and explain it by reference to local grievances, economic alienation and of course ‘crazy people’. But are we really going to examine it and find no common thread, nothing that joins these dots, no sense of an ideology driving or at least exacerbating it all?

There is not a problem with Islam. For those of us who have studied it, there is no doubt about its true and peaceful nature. There is not a problem with Muslims in general. Most in Britain will be horrified at Lee Rigby’s murder.

But there is a problem within Islam – from the adherents of an ideology that is a strain within Islam. And we have to put it on the table and be honest about it.

Of course there are Christian extremists and Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu ones. But I am afraid this strain is not the province of a few extremists. It has at its heart a view about religion and about the interaction between religion and politics that is not compatible with pluralistic, liberal, open-minded societies.

At the extreme end of the spectrum are terrorists, but the world view goes deeper and wider than it is comfortable for us to admit. So by and large we don’t admit it. This has two effects. First, those with that view think we are weak and that gives them strength.

Second, those within Islam – and the good news is there are many – who actually know this problem exists and want to do something about it, lose heart. All over the Middle East and beyond there is a struggle being played out.

On the one side, there are Islamists who have this exclusivist and reactionary world view. They are a significant minority, loud and well organised. On the other are the modern-minded, those who hated the old oppression by corrupt dictators and who hate the new oppression by religious fanatics. They are potentially the majority, but unfortunately they are badly organised.

The seeds of future fanaticism and terror, possibly even major conflict, are being sown. We have to help sow seeds of reconciliation and peace. But clearing the ground for peace is not always peaceful.

The long and hard conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq have made us wary of any interventions abroad. But we should never forget why they were long and hard. We allowed failed states to come into being.

Saddam was responsible for two major wars, in which hundreds of thousands died, many by chemical weapons. He killed similar numbers of his own people.

The Taliban grew out of the Russian occupation of Afghanistan and made the country into a training ground for terror. Once these regimes were removed, both countries have struggled against the same forces promoting violence and terror in the name of religion everywhere.

Not every engagement need be military; or where military, involve troops. But disengaging from this struggle won’t bring us peace.

Neither will security alone. We resisted revolutionary communism by being resolute on security; but we defeated it by a better idea: Freedom. We can do the same with this.

The better idea is a modern view of religion and its place in society and politics. There has to be respect and equality between people of different faiths. Religion must have a voice in the political system but not govern it.

We have to start with how to educate children about faith, here and abroad. That is why I started a foundation whose specific purpose is to educate children of different faiths across the world to learn about each other and live with each other.

We are now in 20 countries and the programmes work. But it is a drop in the ocean compared with the flood of intolerance taught to so many. Now, more than ever, we have to be strong and we have to be strategic.


“At the extreme end of the spectrum are terrorists, but the world view goes deeper and wider than it is comfortable for us to admit. So by and large we don’t admit it,” Mr. Blair said. “The seeds of future fanaticism and terror, possibly even major conflict, are being sown. We have to help sow seeds of reconciliation and peace.”

I think he's ⅔ right:

    1. We do not admit that radical fundamentalism is wide and deep in mainstream Islam; and

    2. “The seeds of future fanaticism and terror, possibly even major conflict, are being sown" right now; but

    3. Helping to sow the seeds of reconciliation and peace is a waste of effort. The desperately needed - for its very survival - of Islam must and can come only from within.

Islam needs a reformation - one which must separate a perfectly 'normal' religion from a weak, backwards, medieval Arab/Persian culture that is unacceptable in 21st century civilization. So it isn't, really, the Islamic reformation that's really important, it is the (highly probable) Arab/Persian enlightenment that is necessary.

What we, the US led West, should do is isolate most of the Islamic Crescent - not Malaysia and Indonesia: weaken trade and investment; stop immigration; stop admitting Arab and Iranian students to our universities and so on. This isolation is intended to help create the kinds of internal tensions that are likely to foment rebellions, revolutions, civil wars and a reformation.
 

Edward Campbell

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On a somewhat related, let's shoot the messenger, topic; here is an interesting article that is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from The Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10092939/Marine-Le-Pen-loses-immunity-over-comparing-Islamic-prayers-to-Nazi-occupation.html
My emphasis aded

Marine Le Pen 'loses immunity' over comparing Islamic prayers to Nazi occupation
Marine Le Pen, the leader of the French far-Right leader faces charges for comparing Islamic prayers to Nazi occupation following a secret European parliamentary committee vote, according to reports.

By Barney Henderson

01 Jun 2013

Mrs Le Pen, leader of the National Front, told a rally in 2010 that the places in France where Muslims worshipped in the streets were "occupied territory".

"For those who want to talk a lot about World War Two, if it's about occupation, then we could also talk about it (Muslim prayers in the streets), because that is occupation of territory," she said at a gathering in Lyon.

In December 2012, French authorities asked the European Parliament to lift Mrs Le Pen's immunity as a European Parliament member (MEP) so she could be prosecuted.

The BBC reports that a secret vote, held earlier this week, voted "overwhelmingly" to remove Mrs Le Pen's immunity.

The vote would need to be ratified formally in parliament, but the BBC states that this would likely be a formality. There was no comment from Mrs Le Pen.

Mrs Le Pen took over the National Front from her father, party founder Jean-Marie Le Pen, who has several convictions for racism and anti-Semitism.

She won 18 per cent of the vote in the first round of France's presidential election in April 2012 – the party's highest ever score.

There are an estimated six million Muslims in France. Following protests from the far-Right, praying in the streets was banned in Paris in 2011.


I think Mlle Le Pen is, to be charitable, hyperbolic; but to prosecute her for this tells me that the government of France, and the French ruling class (all graduates of the same handful of grandes écoles that have been producing pampered dimwits since 1794) is irredeemably corrupt and the whole country should have been left to the tender mercies of the Germans in 1944.
 

OldSolduer

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E.R. Campbell said:
I think Mlle Le Pen is, to be charitable, hyperbolic; but to prosecute her for this tells me that the government of France, and the French ruling class (all graduates of the same handful of grandes écoles that have been producing pampered dimwits since 1794) is irredeemably corrupt and the whole country should have been left to the tender mercies of the Germans in 1944.

Well said, Mr. Campbell

The meek shall not inherit the earth because the witless (or dimwits as you put it) will have destroyed it.
 

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If you want a glimpse of the future watch the movie Idiocracy. I'm convinced that's where we're headed.
 

George Wallace

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Interesting.  If true, I agree with the lady.

BRAVO PM Julia Gillard- she must be PM of the world.

Australia says NO - Second time she has done this!
Australian Prime Minister does it again!!
This woman should be appointed Queen of the World. Truer words have never been spoken.

It took a lot of courage for this woman to speak, what she had to say for the world to hear. The retribution could be phenomenal, but at least she was willing to take a stand on her and Australia 's beliefs.
The whole world needs a leader like this!

Prime Minister Julia Gillard - Australia
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law, were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
Separately, Gillard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying she supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.
Quote:
'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '

'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'

'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society. Learn the language!'

'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'
'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted
.

Trying to source it now.

[edit to add]  And it is a HOAX.  http://www.hoax-slayer.com/gillard-muslims-leave.shtml
 

PanaEng

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George Wallace said:
Interesting.  If true, I agree with the lady.

Trying to source it now.

[edit to add]  And it is a HOAX.  http://www.hoax-slayer.com/gillard-muslims-leave.shtml

That's too bad.
 

a_majoor

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Mark Steyn on how PC attitudes make dealing with the issue.....difficult

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/350505/no-copbad-cop-mark-steyn

No Cop/Bad Cop
By  Mark Steyn
June 7, 2013 2:01 PM
Comments98

I was chugging along buying Jack Dunphy’s argument on the NSA business, “A Small Price To Pay,” until I got to this bit:

There are people living in the United States right now, many, many of them, who are no less committed to jihad than the Tsarnaev brothers or Nidal Hassan.

Well, how’d that happen? How did all these Tsarnaevs-in-waiting wind up living in the United States? They were let in by the government, and many of them were let in in the years since 9/11, when we were supposedly on permanent “orange alert.” The same bureaucracy that takes the terror threat so seriously that it needs the phone and Internet records of hundreds of millions of law-abiding persons would never dream of doing a little more pre-screening in its immigration system — by, say, according a graduate of a Yemeni madrassah a little more scrutiny than a Slovene or Fijian. The president has unilaterally suspended the immigration laws of the United States, and his attorney general prosecutes those states such as Arizona who remain quaintly attached to them. The ID three of the 9/11 hijackers acquired in the 7-Eleven parking lot in Falls Church, Virginia and used to board the plane that day is part of a vast ongoing subversion of American sovereignty with which many states and so-called “sanctuary cities” actively collude.

As for Major Hasan, who needs surveillance? He put “Soldier of Allah” on his business card and gave a PowerPoint presentation to his military colleagues on what he’d like to do to infidels — and nobody said a word, lest they got tied up in sensitivity-training hell for six months.

Jack will forgive me when I say this is less good cop/bad cop than no cop/bad cop. Because the formal, visible state has been neutered by political correctness, the dark, furtive shadow state has to expand massively to make, in secret, the judgment calls that can no longer be made in public. That’s not an arrangement that is likely to end well.
 

George Wallace

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Interesting news in the UK.  Now I wonder a few things here.  What does this family talk about in the home, at the dinner table, around the couch, after a meeting in their basement?  Isn't convenient that they use our Laws when they feel it is in their best interest and disregard them when it is not.  If our Laws are not to be followed because they were written by 'men', then who do they think scribed Sharia Laws?

Link to Family face losing £200,000 home in landmark ruling after grandfather's terror training conviction

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2340243/Family-face-losing-200-000-home-landmark-ruling-grandfathers-terror-conviction.html#ixzz2W6kRbMm7
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


The family of a former Taliban fighter convicted of attempting to recruit two undercover police officers for jihad in Afghanistan face losing their £200,000 home under anti-terrorism laws.

Munir Farooqi, 56, was given four life sentences in September 2011 for running a 'recruitment centre' for home-grown extremists to go to Afghanistan to kill British troops.

His family have now spoken of how it is 'sickening' that they face being made homeless if Farooqi loses his High Court appeal next month against his conviction.

The house in Longsight, Manchester, is home to three generations of the Farooqi family, including two children, according to The Independent.

The Crown Prosecution Service's Proceeds of Crime Unit served the family with a notice at the end of Farooqi's trial for soliciting to murder and disseminating terrorist literature.


The notice informed the Farooqis that they intended to seize the house under Section 23a of the Terrorism Act. But the judge in the case ordered it could not go ahead until Farooqi's appeal against the terror conviction had been heard.

The family's supporters who oppose the seizure say they are being punished even though they have done nothing wrong.

Munir Farooqi's son Harris, 29, a market trader who was cleared of terror charges at the 2011 trial, said eight people lived at the home, owned by his sister and mother.

He told The Independent: 'How can they demonise a whole family? It is sickening.

'You have to be insane deliberately to make a family go through such torture and to claim they are all terrorists.'

The property could be seized under anti-terrorism laws because the court found attempts took place there to radicalise men and persuade them to take part in jihad.

The family told the paper they are confident their father, who was ordered to serve a minimum of nine years, will win his appeal and that the undercover police investigation was unlawful.

The family's solicitor Simon Pook said the act had been misinterpreted. He said it could be in breach of the European Convention of Human Rights if it created case law. Nearly 20,000 people have signed a petition opposing the seizure of the house.


During his trial, Manchester Crown Court heard how Farooqi was at the centre of a plot to radicalise and persuade vulnerable young men to 'fight, kill and die'.


Over a two year period Farooqi - who boasted of being a jihadist and was detained in Afghanistan in 2001- tried to persuade people visiting his stall to travel to training camps in Afghanistan.


He was arrested in November 2009 after two white undercover policemen infiltrated the recruiting school and underwent radicalisation ceremonies in the basement of his terraced home.


During the undercover investigation one of the detectives taped Farooqi boasting: ‘If we die, we win. You have Allah on your side, how can we lose?


‘You know Jihad is not about you giving your life away. If we’re going to go there you make sure you take at least 40 or 50 people with us so we’ve done something.’


In September 2011 Farooqi was convicted of three charges of soliciting murder, preparing for acts of terrorism and distributing terrorist publications after a four month trial. He was jailed for a minimum of nine years.

A CPS spokesman said: 'The Crown Prosecution Service is making an application under S23a of the Terrorism Act 2000 for the forfeiture of Munir Farooqi’s home... on the basis that it has been used for the purposes of terrorism.


'The power to forfeit residential premises in these circumstances is a new power under the Counter Terrorism Act 2008, and before any decision is made, the forfeiture application is considered by the court and the family will be given an opportunity to be heard.


'The court will consider the effect of any order on the family members.'

Under Clause 23a of the Terrorism Act 2000 a convicted terrorist can have their assets seized by the state under a forfeiture order.

The Farooqi family were informed of the Crown Prosecution Service's Proceeds of Crime Unit's intention to seize the house at the end of Munir Farooqi's trial.

The courts found Farooqi attempted to radicalise men and recruit them for jihad at the house.

But the judge ordered the seizure proceedings to take place after the outcome of Farooqi's appeal.

His outraged family say they are entitled to a private and family life and will use the Human Rights Act to fight the move.

Their solicitor Simon Pook said the act had been misinterpreted and would be in breach of the European Convention of Human Rights if it created case law.

The CPS has said the power to forfeit residential premises in these circumstances is a new power under the Counter Terrorism Act 2008.
 

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E.R. Campbell said:
According to a report in the Globe and Mail, BC Premier Christy Clark says, to be woud-be BC bombers, "You will not succeed," but, of course, they will succeed, in one way or another, eventually. Perhaps they will not, as Premier Clark suggests, succeed in tearing down our values but they will manage to knock down some bridges or buildings. We ~ the security services ~ are, rather like the Israelis: the Isrealis have to win every war, every battle, while the Arabs just have to get lucky once. Sooner or later the home grown, self radicalized terrorists will "get lucky" and we will be horrified.

The trick, the path to victory, for us, is to be "horrified" without ever, being "terrorized." Our sense of "horror" and our sense of "honour" must lead us towards a steely resolve to defend and preserve our values, our institutions, our culture against all comers. We must know that our culture is worthy, even better than others. That doesn't mean we should be intolerant but it does mean that we should remember both the definition of tolerance (the ability or willingness to accept the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or with which one disagrees) and its origin (late Middle English (denoting the action of bearing hardship, or the ability to bear pain and hardship): via Old French from Latin tolerantia, from tolerare). Tolerating less "worthy" cultures ~ while we help to change/reform them ~ may, indeed, involve some hardship but the end effect, helping others to adapt their cultures so that they no longer need to be tolerated, is worth it.


And here, in a report which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Los Angeles Times is a report on a cultural value that we must find intolerable, slavery:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-saudi-princess-20130711,0,4263322.story
Saudi princess charged in O.C. human trafficking case
Saudi princess Meshael Alayban is accused of forcing a Kenyan woman to work as a domestic servant in Irvine. She allegedly made the woman work 16 hours a day, seven days a week, for $220 a month.

By Richard Winton

July 10, 2013

A woman whom Orange County authorities described as a Saudi royal princess was charged Wednesday with human trafficking for allegedly forcing a Kenyan woman to work as a domestic servant.

Meshael Alayban, 42, was taken into custody early Wednesday by police at her Irvine home in a gated community. Orange County prosecutors allege that Alayban forced the woman to work 16 hours a day, seven days a week, for only $220 a month. Authorities say she was unable to flee because Alayban kept the woman's passport and documents.

Authorities said the woman left the home on Tuesday. She boarded a bus and eventually contacted police.

Dist. Atty. Tony Rackauckas on Wednesday charged Alayban with one felony count of human trafficking.

"The law of our nation and California does not tolerate people who deprive or violate the liberty of another and obtain forced labor or services," Rackauckas said. "If any person is being enslaved, he or she should contact law enforcement."

In addition to the Kenyan woman, police said officers found four other workers being held under similar circumstances at Alayban's home. Detectives continue to investigate, but no charges have yet been filed in those cases.

Prosecutors requested that Alayban be held without bail because she was a flight risk. But a judge ordered she be held in lieu of $5 million. He also ordered her to surrender her passport, not to travel outside Orange County and to wear a monitor if released.

Orange County prosecutors identified Alayban as one of the wives of Saudi Prince Abdulrahman bin Nasser bin Abdulaziz al Saud. She could not be reached for comment, but in a statement to the Los Angeles Times, her attorney, Paul S. Meyer, said there was no physical abuse, no physical restraint and that the complaints were about hours worked and wages paid.

"We intend to fully investigate this matter, and expect that the truth will resolve it," he said.

The servant, whose identity was not released by authorities, began working for the family in Saudi Arabia to help cover her young daughter's medical care, officials said. The woman was contacted through an agency in Kenya to work for Alayban's family in Saudi Arabia in March 2012. She was meant to work for two years and be paid $1,600 a month. She was told she'd work eight hours a day, five days a week and that her pay would rise after three months, authorities said.

Irvine police said that when the woman arrived in Saudi Arabia, Alayban took her passport. She accompanied Alayban and her family when they came to Irvine in May. Police said the servant came with four other women from the Philippines working under similar contracts.

She told detectives she was required to work excessive hours and paid only a fraction of the agreed-upon salary. When the woman complained about the working conditions and asked for her passport back so she could leave, Alayban refused to give it to her, police said.

The servant told authorities she was working for various Alayban family members living in four luxury apartments in a development off Jamboree Road, police said. She claimed she was not allowed to leave the complex without a member of the family present.

"We are gratified to have been able to help this victim find her freedom," Irvine Police Chief David L. Maggard Jr. said.

The servant finally left the complex Tuesday, carrying a suitcase and a U.S. State Department pamphlet on human trafficking, officials said. The pamphlet had been given to her at a U.S. Embassy in Saudi Arabia, where she was issued a travel visa, Maggard said.

A woman on the bus noticed she was upset and began talking to her. That woman eventually helped her contact police.

When police arrived at Alayban's home, they found the four other women. Police said they told detectives their travel documents had also been taken by Alayban.

Detectives were trying to retrieve the documents from a safe deposit box.

richard.winton@latimes.com


I am almost certain that the US State Department will intervene, at the behest of the House of Saud to subvert justice in America.

Slavery remains a "taken for granted" issue in Islam and many Arabs think it is normal that e.g. Africans and Philippines people should be, de facto enslaved. Some would use the term indentured but we would not have recognized those terms of indenture since the early 19th century.

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