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Informing the Army’s Future Structure

I know the QORof C tried something similar about 20 years ago with moving Buff's Coy out to Scarborough. Like most things, it was a great I initiative that would have seen great promise with 10 to 15 years of buy in.

Instead, there was no immediate payoff and the project was scrapped. So to this day, a sizeable portion of your recruitable force is living in Suburbia/Durham County... your only options east of the downtown core are Oshawa, Cobourg, or Peterborough for Reserve Force employment before you hit Belleville.

Does not make any sense to me.

The Bert Hoffmeister armoury in Vancouver enters the chat...

Good thing they had the Cadets on parade to make up numbers or it would have looked pretty anemic because no one in downtown Vancouver wants anything to do with the Army these days ;)

 
A couple of interesting submissions from Battle Order

1 - the structure of the Platoon in the Swiss Territorial Division (5 Battalions per Division)

Swiss Infantry Platoon (2019-Present)​


Military Organization > Switzerland > Swiss Infantry Platoon (2019-Present)

Swiss Rifle Platoon Organization with Piranha 2C




Part of: Infantry Company of the Infantry Battalion (Territorial Division)

Type: Motorized Infantry

Time Frame: 2019-Present (Modern)

Personnel: 1-2 Officers, 42-43 Other Ranks



The following is the organization of the Swiss Army Infantry Platoon as it applies to its Territorial Division Infantry Battalions. These are motorized infantry, mounted in either a variant of the MOWAG Piranha IIC (APC-93) or the MOWAG Duro IIIP (GMTF 11 Pl/2t 6x6 gl). The vehicles are more or less interchangeable with the same personnel and equipment for both types of vehicles, but vary in application depending on environment.



Generally, each Infantry Company has four Infantry Platoons (this), while each Infantry Battalion has a Staff Company, three Infantry Companies, and a Combat Support Company with 81mm mortars and snipers. This information broadly applies to units in Infantry Battalions, Mountain Battalions (Gebirgsinfanterie and Gebirgsschützen), and the Carbiniers Battalion. Territorial Divisions generally have four to five of such battalions, in addition to a Divisional Staff Battalion, Engineer Battalion, and Search & Rescue Battalion. This makes the regionally-based Territorial Divisions the size of large brigades or very small divisions.



↓ Organization​


Vehicle One (APC-93 or GMTF 11 Pl/2t 6x6 gl)

Vehicle Crew

1× Platoon Leader,
Leutnant or Oberleutnant, armed with 1 Stgw 90 Rifle

1× Vehicle Machine Gunner, Soldat/Gefreiter, armed with 1 Stgw 90 Rifle

1× Driver, Soldat/Gefreiter, armed with a 1 Stgw 90 Rifle

Troop Bravo (of Infantry Group)

1× Group Leader
, Wachtmeister, armed with 1 Stgw 90 Rifle (optionally with Kern Aarau 4x24 scope)

1× Machine Gunner, Soldat/Gefreiter, armed with 1 LMg 05 Light Machine Gun

1× Anti-Tank Rifleman, Soldat/Gefreiter, armed with 1 Stgw 90 Rifle (with GwA 97 Grenade Launcher) and Panzerfaust 3 or MATADOR

1× Rifleman, Soldat/Gefreiter, armed with 1 Stgw 90 Rifle

Troop Alpha (of Infantry Group)

1× Troop Leader
, Wachtmeister, armed with 1 Stgw 90 Rifle (optionally with Kern Aarau 4x24 scope)

1× Machine Gunner, Soldat/Gefreiter, armed with 1 LMg 05 Light Machine Gun

1× Anti-Tank Rifleman, Soldat/Gefreiter, armed with 1 Stgw 90 Rifle (with GwA 97 Grenade Launcher) and Panzerfaust 3 or MATADOR

1× Rifleman/Breacher, Soldat/Gefreiter, armed with 1 Stgw 90 Rifle



Vehicle Three (APC-93 or GMTF 11 Pl/2t 6x6 gl)

Vehicle Crew

1× Deputy Platoon Leader,
Oberwachtmeister/Leutnant, armed with 1 Stgw 90 Rifle

1× Vehicle Machine Gunner, Soldat/Gefreiter, armed with 1 Stgw 90 Rifle

1× Driver, Soldat/Gefreiter, armed with a 1 Stgw 90 Rifle

(same Dismounted Group as Vehicle One)



Vehicle Two & Four (APC-93 or GMTF 11 Pl/2t 6x6 gl)

Vehicle Crew

1× Vehicle Commander,
Wachtmeister, armed with 1 Stgw 90 Rifle

1× Vehicle Machine Gunner, Soldat/Gefreiter, armed with 1 Stgw 90 Rifle

1× Driver, Soldat/Gefreiter, armed with a 1 Stgw 90 Rifle

(same Dismounted Group as Vehicle One)



↓ Discussion​


The Swiss Army Infantry Platoon is a motorized infantry formation and one of the fundamental close combat elements of Switzerland's Territorial Infantry Battalions. These battalions are part of one of four Territorial Divisions, which are tied to Territorial Regions for the purposes of regional defense and coordinating civilian-military operations in a given area. These divisions are in addition to the Army (Heer), which consists of three Mechanized Brigades composed principally of Panzer and Mechanized Battalions (each with two Panzer Companies with Leopard 2A4s and two Panzergrenadier Companies with CV9030s) and Reconnaissance Battalions (with three Recce Companies mounted in MOWAG Eagles).

The platoon itself consists of four vehicles and four dismounted Infantry Groups (Infanterie Gruppe in German and Groupe de combat d’Infanterie in French). These may be a mix of APC-93s (a variant of the MOWAG Piranha IIC 8x8 armored personnel carrier) or the GMTF 11 Pl/2t 6x6 gl (a variant of the MOWAG DURO IIIP 6x6). Both are armed with M2HB 12.7mm heavy machine guns (designated Mg 64 in Swiss service) and vehicle crews are trained to operate both. Generally speaking, the Piranha seems to be preferred for operations in the countryside while the DURO is preferred for urban operations, although this may not be entirely prescriptive. These vehicles are split into two sections, whose structure is mirrored on the dismount. The first section is led by the Platoon Leader, who is typically a Oberleutnant (1st Lieutenant) or Leutnant (2nd Lieutenant) while the second section is led by the Deputy Platoon Leader, typically an Oberwachtmeister (Sergeant First Class) or Leutnant. Both act as vehicle commanders. When the platoon dismounts, either could remain mounted to command the vehicles depending on the orders of the Platoon Leader. However, if both dismount, command of the mounted element passes over to the senior-most Vehicle Commander. Vehicle Commanders are equivalent in rank and status to Group Leaders, both being Wachtmeister (Sergeant). As such, neither is superior to the other, although when mounted the Vehicle Commanders are the ones taking orders from platoon leadership. Further, on the dismount, the vehicles generally act as a separate entity from the dismounts under platoon orders rather than group orders. The vehicles are further crewed by a Machine Gunner (who mans the remote machine gun on both vehicles) and a Driver.

Equipment of the Swiss Infantry Squad



Each dismount Infantry Group meanwhile consists of eight personnel. They are split into two troops or teams (équipe in French and trupp in German) each under a leader. There appears to be some variation in how things are organized and who is equipped with what as several Swiss servicemembers have given conflicting reports of what their units do, so we are reporting what seems to be the most generally true. Troop Bravo is under the command of the Group Leader, who typically ranks Wachtmeister. He is the only non-commissioned officer in the group. Troop Alpha is under the Troop Leader, who is typically a Gefreiter (junior enlisted with some time in service). The troops are designated as such because typically the Troop Leader's takes the lead position in movements and when breaching buildings, while the Group Leader's troop follows and supports. However, in some units, the naming convention may be reversed, with the Group Leader in Alpha and the Troop Leader in Bravo. Either way, each troop further consists of a Light Machine Gunner, Anti-Tank Rifleman, and Rifleman.

The Group Leader and Troop Leader are armed with Stgw 90 rifles. Generally speaking, these two (or at least the Troop Leader depending on the unit) will also be equipped as designated marksmen with a Kern Aarau 4x24 optic. While there are practical advantages to giving leaders optics over other soldiers (enhancing their target acquisition capabilities), this change was mainly to cope with the limited time the Swiss Army has to train conscripts. Swiss DMR doctrine places an emphasis on rapid target acquisition with carefully aimed first shots and rapid follow-on shots to increase hit probability if a mistake was made or at least suppress the target in a very short period of time. Given the Troop Leader and Group Leader are generally the most experienced soldiers in the group (or at least the most competent) logic follows that they can make the most out of the added capability. However, as stated previously, there is variation as to who actually gets the DMR(s), so in some circumstances the Group and Troop Leader won't be the ones with it. In some instances, it could just be the soldier in the group who is most skilled at marksmanship.

The Machine Gunners meanwhile are equipped with the LMg 05, a short-barreled variant of the FN Minimi belt-fed light achine gun chambered in 5.56x45mm. They appear to usually be equipped with EOTech Holographic sights as well. Next up, the Anti-Tank Riflemen may be armed with a variety of weapon systems. Since 2019, they have been at least armed with Stgw 90 rifles and GwA 97 under-barrel grenade launchers (these used to be issued to the Riflemen). However—again with unit variation—sometimes a grenade launcher goes to a Rifleman instead. AT Riflemen may further be equipped with either a Panzerfaust 3 or MATADOR in the future. The MATADOR may provide specificity for operations in urban environments with its HESH/HEAT rounds, but we are unsure if they will be replacing the Pzf 3 eventually in the motorized infantry. Each AT Rifleman carries only one munition.

Rounding out the dismount groups are two Riflemen, one per troop. Both are armed with Stgw 90 rifles, but may be assigned other specialty functions. For example, there is usually one breacher/demolitions specialists in the group who is responsible for explosives and operating breaching kits. Another Rifleman could operate a 60mm mortar for signalling at night as well.


The APC93, or Piranha IIC, is effectively a Bison or Coyote with an RWS on top, leaving room for 3 crew and 8 Pax.

The alternate transport is an armoured truck with an RWS on top with the same loading

MOWAG Duro IIIP (GMTF 11 Pl/2t 6x6 gl).

1667327227396.png

1667327276044.png
 
The second presentation is a video on the playing around the French have been doing with their Armoured Regiments.

Effectively they pair VBLs and MBTs in their Tank Squadrons - one for one. They also mix Tank and VBL Squadrons within the Regiment.

The VBLs in the Tank Squadrons conduct local recce. There are three Squadrons to the Regiment.

The VBL Squadrons, 1 or 2 of them for each regiment, both conducting Divisional Recce and Anti-Tank Operations.

It seems like one of the VBL Squadrons is going to be converted to UAS/EW operations while one or two new Reserve Force VBL squadrons will be added. This is apparently a result of the French take on lessons learned in Ukraine.

 
I think that the recce/anti-armour combo symbol in the Div Scouting Squadron is my new favourite.

🍻
 
This one?

600px-Military_Symbol_-_Friendly_Unit_%28Solid_Light_1.5x1_Frame%29-_Anti-Tank_%26_Reconnaissance_%28NATO_APP-6C%29.svg.png
Yup.

It took me a second to figure it out and then it just struck me as brilliant - both as a symbol and as a tactical function.

I've been playing with notions for a modern cavalry force that merged recce with anti-armour with UAVs and UCAVs all linked in with long range artillery a la Deep Strike BCT on steroids. Add a track or wheeled modifier and maybe a UAV gull-wing modifier and you're there.

This will show up in my next napkin force iteration - TAPV based.

1667351344316.png

:giggle:
 
The Alternative to the IFV strategy.

Boxers and Wiesels


The Boxer, as used by the Germans, is an armoured bus, a troop transporter for the dismount infantry. Its main armament is an RWS with either a 12.7mm HMG or a 40mm GMG. These are for close protection of the vehicle only.

The Battalion's heavy weapons are carried separately in the Wiesel. Many on this site have commented on the Wiesel before, a light, air and helitransportable tracked vehicle that carries a variety of weapons. The principal weapons pairing is a Wiesel with an ATGM (currently the venerable TOW) and another Wiesel with a dual feed 20 mm autocannon. The Wiesel is also used for a mounted 120mm mortar system, a light anti-aircraft system and assorted FOVs, CPs and sensors. These can accompany the troops on deployment by air even when their Boxers can't.

The 20mm/ATGM pairing deserves some further consideration.

The Javelin/NLAW ATGMs have been getting lots of good press in Ukraine but as the war drags on stocks are under stress. That has prompted the Ukrainians to build a 14.5 mm Anti-Materiel Rifle with a 2 km range to take the load off the ATGMs. In much the same way I fancy the 20mm takes the load off of the TOWs in the German Wiesels.


Given that NLAW weighs 12.5 kg, the Javelin weighs 22.3 kg and the Alligator AMR weighs 25 kg I can only think that those weapons would benefit from having weapons carriers to transport them. In which case why not the Wiesel?

Especially given that Rheinmetall has a new optionally manned version


This is based on the same technology as Rheinmetall's other autonomous systems.


View attachment 71848


Leave the IFVs to the RCAC and the Panzergrenadiers.

Buy ACSV TCVs for infantry transport and put the battalion weapons companies on board something that can be lifted by air in the same helicopters and aircraft as the rifles.

Yup.

It took me a second to figure it out and then it just struck me as brilliant - both as a symbol and as a tactical function.

I've been playing with notions for a modern cavalry force that merged recce with anti-armour with UAVs and UCAVs all linked in with long range artillery a la Deep Strike BCT on steroids. Add a track or wheeled modifier and maybe a UAV gull-wing modifier and you're there.

This will show up in my next napkin force iteration - TAPV based.

View attachment 74623

:giggle:
You know if you acted quickly enough , you could sell that for a fair chunk of change in one of the New York art galleries.
 
Don’t make your symbols too busy.
600px-thumbnail.svg.png
:LOL:

Although the NATO symbol system is designed to add a fair number of modifiers and thus get busy.

1667352602439.png


It becomes a question of how much you need to hang on when the prime users understand what the equipment mix of a particular force is.

I think the recce and anti-armour symbol are necessary to show the dual function. The UAV symbol isn't necessary but the armoured/wheeled is useful.

🍻
 
:LOL:

Although the NATO symbol system is designed to add a fair number of modifiers and thus get busy.




It becomes a question of how much you need to hang on when the prime users understand what the equipment mix of a particular force is.
I’d suggest it is necessary the further up the allied structure you go for understanding, at a Div and below level it should be understood (ah then those Mukti National Bde’s get complicated)
That said, it’s easier just to show them a Div icon and leave it at that - and if really necessary tell them to google what’s in a Div…

I think the recce and anti-armour symbol are necessary to show the dual function. The UAV symbol isn't necessary but the armoured/wheeled is useful.

🍻
UAV symbols are only necessarily (IMHO) for higher level UAS (non Bde organic).
 
UAV symbols are only necessarily (IMHO) for higher level UAS (non Bde organic).
Yeah. It's the difference between a UAV being part of the equipment of a unit with a different function and a unit or subunit whose primary function is operating UAVs.

🍻
 
A couple of interesting submissions from Battle Order

1 - the structure of the Platoon in the Swiss Territorial Division (5 Battalions per Division)




The APC93, or Piranha IIC, is effectively a Bison or Coyote with an RWS on top, leaving room for 3 crew and 8 Pax.

The alternate transport is an armoured truck with an RWS on top with the same loading

MOWAG Duro IIIP (GMTF 11 Pl/2t 6x6 gl).

View attachment 74610

View attachment 74611
Context being these light Bns, that’s what they are, light Bns with APCs. Are supplemental to the higher readiness armoured formations, which have infantry in the IFVs.
 
Context being these light Bns, that’s what they are, light Bns with APCs. Are supplemental to the higher readiness armoured formations, which have infantry in the IFVs.
Context accepted. That was what our M113 army used to was.
 
Context accepted. That was what our M113 army used to was.
The 113 was a pre IFV era battle taxi.
The only 113 formations we really had was 4CMBG which at the time was our heaviest entity.
The units inside Canada had AVGP’s and tracks only for TOW (outside the CAR who had them on Jeeps then Iltis)
 
One of the issues I have with looking at continental European armies is they are; 1) setup primary for Home Defense and/or 2) Haven't fought a significant combat action in ages against any sort of organized foe.

Switzerland prides itself on it's neutrality, and solely has forces for Border integrity, as well as the whole not fighting a war in centuries.

France is well France - short of African excursions, it really hasn't done a lot since it's departure from French Indo-China.

Due to Canada's location- it is faced with little geographic threats, and thus needs an Expeditionary Army - of which the US and UK have the most modern and experienced forces of NATO allies.

Those Militaries are thus best suited to both emulate - and to tailor ones force to work with.
 
The 113 was a pre IFV era battle taxi.
The only 113 formations we really had was 4CMBG which at the time was our heaviest entity.
The units inside Canada had AVGP’s and tracks only for TOW (outside the CAR who had them on Jeeps then Iltis)
It varied over the years. 3 CIBG out of Gagetown was also heavily tracked and after its demise, the Ace Mobile Force and CAST Combat Group were heavily tracked. - Sigh. There were those days in D Battery where we dragged our L5 pack howitzers around with and in M548s.

Me about to go FOOing.

67347824_2497870473685171_2485753683095060480_n.jpg


:giggle:
 
of the issues I have with looking at continental European armies is they are; 1) setup primary for Home Defense and/or 2) Haven't fought a significant combat action in ages against any sort of organized foe.

Switzerland prides itself on it's neutrality, and solely has forces for Border integrity, as well as the whole not fighting a war in centuries.

Agreed, when we need to relearn pike and shot tactics, the Swiss will be my first port of call. Until then I’ll note them fire developing rubber rifle sticks to let you shoot AT Rifle Grenades and red camouflage.
 
One of the issues I have with looking at continental European armies is they are; 1) setup primary for Home Defense and/or 2) Haven't fought a significant combat action in ages against any sort of organized foe.

Switzerland prides itself on it's neutrality, and solely has forces for Border integrity, as well as the whole not fighting a war in centuries.

France is well France - short of African excursions, it really hasn't done a lot since it's departure from French Indo-China.

Due to Canada's location- it is faced with little geographic threats, and thus needs an Expeditionary Army - of which the US and UK have the most modern and experienced forces of NATO allies.

Those Militaries are thus best suited to both emulate - and to tailor ones force to work with.

Lessons learned:

You can be an Army that hasn't fought a battle in 50 years, and win against a more experienced Army, as long as you modernize your technology, train for war, and have an efficient and professional General Staff.... or something like that....

 
Lessons learned:

You can be an Army that hasn't fought a battle in 50 years, and win against a more experienced Army, as long as you modernize your technology, train for war, and have an efficient and professional General Staff.... or something like that....

Helps if your fighting a collapsing empire beset with internal strife and a operationally crippling language policy.
 
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