Infantry Vehicles

[KevinB]

Not thinking about the Suburban as a tactical vehicle just as a local run-around that could also comfortably deploy Platoons between armouries and from the armoury to the field. They have sufficient off roading ability to handle cut lines and fire guards and are pretty good in snow. Don't forget the winch to get them out of trouble when the lead driver-mechanic drives farther than they ought to.

Again - I don’t see the point of non tactical vehicles. Why get a COTS system when you can get a MOTS system that can also be used operationally- as the numbers each PRes unit would need for actual troops would be fairly insignificant.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That local support won’t exist operationally, so I would suggest it’s pointless, or even worse.

I think they need more - unless it’s just 1-2 vehicles. But if your looking at a Platoon or higher, you need to factor in the drivers won’t be available most of the time.

I’d argue that all you did there is contribute to the believe that units can be somewhat sufficient themselves.

Give the CAF is short 10% plus (20% if The Big Cod is correct) that 200 bodies are not going to be able to be found or scrounged.

It’s still money, money the CAF shouldn’t prioritize to the PRes - at this point in time.

I do understand your points, but I disagree. We had a fulltime class b vehicle tech when we were ops tasked and our vehicle availability rate shot up considerably. A dedicated person with tools and small parts supply can keep a lot of small issues from becoming big ones and we all gave him a hand on bigger jobs. With all the skill sets you find in the Reserves, you can do a lot if given a chance. Our Deuce based flying kitchen and primary Command post (back in the days of plotting boards and HP 14 calculators) were all built in house. Give your vehicle tech a credit card to purchase parts locally and a database to log parts and vehicle maintenance to and there is your tracking system. Doing this will be like increasing the existing fleet by 1/3rd without buying anymore vehicles, thanks to availability rates going up.

 

[FJAG]

Again - I don’t see the point of non tactical vehicles. Why get a COTS system when you can get a MOTS system that can also be used operationally- as the numbers each PRes unit would need for actual troops would be fairly insignificant.

That's where I stand. If it can't be used on operations then its wasting all of its potential.

That said, it strikes me that many COTS things might have an operational use even if right now we don't designate them for that. The MLVS MilCOTS comes to mind. It appears rugged enough to fulfil logistics work at a "behind the brigade" level so long as a pallet handling procedure can be worked out for it. Even the basic cargo w/seats version could probably have a use in moving around those dismounted infantry we keep talking about.

 

[Kirkhill]

Again - I don’t see the point of non tactical vehicles. Why get a COTS system when you can get a MOTS system that can also be used operationally- as the numbers each PRes unit would need for actual troops would be fairly insignificant.

Numbers for actual troops ---

For most of the Reserves, most days, they are looking for a runabout for local running on highways. Occasionally they will be taking a short jaunt over rough roads and once in a blue moon they will actually drive off road for a bit.

When employed operationally it would be 2 to 4 crew in a pickup with or without a trailer. The Milverado looks just about right.

The Infantry needs a troop carrier that keeps a section warm and dry and comfortable over long hauls. - Hence the Suburban suggestion.

The Cavalry needs a suitable Recce vehicle - perhaps some combination of ISVs and Milverados or a hybrid.

Is This GM Military Pickup Another Hint of the Forthcoming Chevy Silverado HD ZR2 Off-Road Truck?

image: GM Defense International Is this military prototype truck hinting at the future of GM's heavy-duty off-road trucks? This may just be an indirect previ

tfltruck.com

Service Battalion Transport Coys can handle MSVSs, Wheeled Armoured Troop Carrier Vehicles BvS10s, and potentially RHIBs.

 

[Kirkhill]

That's where I stand. If it can't be used on operations then its wasting all of its potential.

That said, it strikes me that many COTS things might have an operational use even if right now we don't designate them for that. The MLVS MilCOTS comes to mind. It appears rugged enough to fulfil logistics work at a "behind the brigade" level so long as a pallet handling procedure can be worked out for it. Even the basic cargo w/seats version could probably have a use in moving around those dismounted infantry we keep talking about.

I'm seeing an awful lot of Civvy pattern pickups being used to relocate small bodies of armed fighters in Ukraine. And do we need to get into the popularity of Toyotas?

 

[Blackadder1916]

The Infantry needs a troop carrier that keeps a section warm and dry and comfortable over long hauls. - Hence the Suburban suggestion.

There's already a solution for that.



And if need be, it can be in green. That was the colour of our buses in Germany where they were used to move troops to exercise areas (while their tracks went by rail or flatbed) and with some of them specially fitted to purpose as high capacity ambulances (they were so used during the Gulf War). When not used for military requirements, they did double duty as school buses.

 

[KevinB]

I'm seeing an awful lot of Civvy pattern pickups being used to relocate small bodies of armed fighters in Ukraine. And do we need to get into the popularity of Toyotas?

Again because they are there, not because they are the ideal (or even close) vehicle for the role.
If Canada all of a sudden needed to dispatch a hundred thousand+ soldiers - fine grab them off a Chevy lot with an IOU in the name of the crown. But as @Blackadder1916 pointed out the CAF has busses. If it’s an admin move in Canada —> Bus.

Because Canada is in such dire straights for equipment, it’s even more important that monies not be wasted on subpar items for non deployable assets.

 

[Rick Goebel]

That's where they went!

Actually, we regularly loaned 1VP all four of our Grizzlies. In return, they loaned us three platoons worth of Grizzlies for FTXs. It worked well.

 

[Kirkhill]

There's already a solution for that.

View attachment 74483

And if need be, it can be in green. That was the colour of our buses in Germany where they were used to move troops to exercise areas (while their tracks went by rail or flatbed) and with some of them specially fitted to purpose as high capacity ambulances (they were so used during the Gulf War). When not used for military requirements, they did double duty as school buses.

Again because they are there, not because they are the ideal (or even close) vehicle for the role.
If Canada all of a sudden needed to dispatch a hundred thousand+ soldiers - fine grab them off a Chevy lot with an IOU in the name of the crown. But as @Blackadder1916 pointed out the CAF has busses. If it’s an admin move in Canada —> Bus.

Because Canada is in such dire straights for equipment, it’s even more important that monies not be wasted on subpar items for non deployable assets.

Fair comments


What does the CAF inventory of people movers look like?

Holdings for local Service Battalion Transport Coys?







And a crated kit to convert bare city buses and school buses to an 18 patient ambulance in 2 hours.

Old school buses converted into ambulances to evacuate nursing homes

Fredericksburg company First Line Tech is assembling kits for the buses to allow nursing homes to be quickly evacuated -- an idea first used after Hurricane Katrina.

www.wusa9.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Actually, we regularly loaned 1VP all four of our Grizzlies. In return, they loaned us three platoons worth of Grizzlies for FTXs. It worked well.

Thanks Rick. By that time I was spending as much time in Lethbridge as I was in Calgary so wasn't keeping up to date.

Didn't we have a similar arrangement with our Admin vehicles? It seems to me we regularly drew vehicles from the compound at Currie.

 

[FJAG]

Thanks Rick. By that time I was spending as much time in Lethbridge as I was in Calgary so wasn't keeping up to date.

Didn't we have a similar arrangement with our Admin vehicles? It seems to me we regularly drew vehicles from the compound at Currie.

We did that too when 2 RCHA only had one gun battery by "taxing" Central Militia Area to provide a complete battery worth of kit and then making it available for weekend and summer exercises.

BUT @KevinB's real point is that its not so much the borrowing or the ad hocery that goes on for training, it's the fact that when you need to mobilize something bigger than 3 RegF brigades, all you have is worthless kit to give to the mobilized force rather than proper deployable gear.

I do believe that one should and can make some use of the MilCOTS stuff that we have but that as of this minute we should stop buying more and instead buy the proper SMP vehicles that will allow you to properly expand your force in time of war. We need a doctrine to tell us what we're supposed to do and what we need to do it with and then rigorously buy that. You can always use (and we have) a TAPV or even LAV on a domestic disaster op but you can't use some of the MilCOTS kit we have in a peer war without attracting unnecessary casualties or capability limitations. If the right piece of kit is an ISV for light infantry (and I'm not saying it necessarily is) then let's get the same ISVs for the ResF light battalions as the RegF ones have and not Toyota pickups even if it means fewer vehicles. If things go really really bad and we're short of those ISVs then we can always UOR a bunch of Toyotas out of parking lots but let's stop planning on buying MilCOTS.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It seems that pickup[p trucks make pretty good mortar vehicles for 'shoot and scoots'

https://twitter.com/x/status/1585629408982814722

 

[Kirkhill]

We did that too when 2 RCHA only had one gun battery by "taxing" Central Militia Area to provide a complete battery worth of kit and then making it available for weekend and summer exercises.

BUT @KevinB's real point is that its not so much the borrowing or the ad hocery that goes on for training, it's the fact that when you need to mobilize something bigger than 3 RegF brigades, all you have is worthless kit to give to the mobilized force rather than proper deployable gear.

I do believe that one should and can make some use of the MilCOTS stuff that we have but that as of this minute we should stop buying more and instead buy the proper SMP vehicles that will allow you to properly expand your force in time of war. We need a doctrine to tell us what we're supposed to do and what we need to do it with and then rigorously buy that. You can always use (and we have) a TAPV or even LAV on a domestic disaster op but you can't use some of the MilCOTS kit we have in a peer war without attracting unnecessary casualties or capability limitations. If the right piece of kit is an ISV for light infantry (and I'm not saying it necessarily is) then let's get the same ISVs for the ResF light battalions as the RegF ones have and not Toyota pickups even if it means fewer vehicles. If things go really really bad and we're short of those ISVs then we can always UOR a bunch of Toyotas out of parking lots but let's stop planning on buying MilCOTS.

I take the point- but when you have nothing something looks better.

And as D&B points out - even a North American Pickup (with a 400 HP engine) - can be put to useful work.

LSVW - 115 HP
MLVW - 165 HP
Milverado - 365 HP

And new Suburbans et al come with ride height adjustment.

 

[KevinB]

I take the point- but when you have nothing something looks better.

And as D&B points out - even a North American Pickup (with a 400 HP engine) - can be put to useful work.

LSVW - 115 HP
MLVW - 165 HP
Milverado - 365 HP

And new Suburbans et al come with ride height adjustment.

Even in Extra Heigh off road 4x4 mode my 6.2L Z71 Suburban isn’t a fantastically awesome off road vehicle.
It’s got rear IFS too, but it’s significantly heavier than a CUCV type pickup.

It’s good on range roads - but not off roads

 

[Furniture]

I'm definitely not an expert on anything infantry but looking at it from the perspective of supply chain, a Light (ISV) and/or Medium (HD 2500) vehicle based on a commercial light or HD truck chassis and running gear makes good sense if we are worried about ramping up for a peer-on-peer war. The manufacturers already have the supply chain sorted for the initial phases of the war, which would allow for some breathing room to ramp up production.

 

[KevinB]

I'm definitely not an expert on anything infantry but looking at it from the perspective of supply chain, a Light (ISV) and/or Medium (HD 2500) vehicle based on a commercial light or HD truck chassis and running gear makes good sense if we are worried about ramping up for a peer-on-peer war. The manufacturers already have the supply chain sorted for the initial phases of the war, which would allow for some breathing room to ramp up production.

The US Army ISV is based off the ZR2 Colorado (basically the off-road version).
For 4-5 folks it’s fantastic, it’s an overburdened pig at 9-10.

The only issue with the 2500 series is they get heavy, and even the off road versions behave like my Suburban.

The AGMV Ground Mobility Vehicle (GMV) - USAASC
Is not COTS but it’s significantly better than the ISV for off road work (still not great with 9 pax)
And the SOCOM Flyer 72 which is the same base vehicle as the Army AGMV but without the troops seats and idiot bar of the Army one, plus a few more bells and whistles.

 

[Furniture]

The US Army ISV is based off the ZR2 Colorado (basically the off-road version).
For 4-5 folks it’s fantastic, it’s an overburdened pig at 9-10.

The only issue with the 2500 series is they get heavy, and even the off road versions behave like my Suburban.

The AGMV Ground Mobility Vehicle (GMV) - USAASC
Is not COTS but it’s significantly better than the ISV for off road work (still not great with 9 pax)
And the SOCOM Flyer 72 which is the same base vehicle as the Army AGMV but without the troops seats and idiot bar of the Army one, plus a few more bells and whistles.

I hadn't seen the AGMV before, but it certainly looks interesting. My thinking on the ISV and potential ZR2 2500 was more that GM has massive parts stores, and a supply chain capable of supporting a production of tens of thousands of units a year already.

I mentioned in a different thread, maybe this one, to my mind two vehicles per section seems more reasonable. It keeps the vehicle light, and small for off-road. I was thinking the 2500 based vehicle more for support functions that may need a heavier vehicle, but not needing something on the scale of a MSVS.

 

[Kirkhill]

My starting point is a commercial vehicle with a powerful engine, good transmission, great suspension and adjustable ride height.

Actual dimensions and furnishings TBD.

A winch required.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm definitely not an expert on anything infantry but looking at it from the perspective of supply chain, a Light (ISV) and/or Medium (HD 2500) vehicle based on a commercial light or HD truck chassis and running gear makes good sense if we are worried about ramping up for a peer-on-peer war. The manufacturers already have the supply chain sorted for the initial phases of the war, which would allow for some breathing room to ramp up production.

Then you are the best qualified to comment

 

[Furniture]

Then you are the best qualified to comment

Well played...

My point was more that as someone who has stayed at a Holiday Inn watching YouTube videos of historians discussing WWII vehicles, one recurring theme was that nations tended to be best served by vehicles that used parts already in production for civilian pattern vehicles, like the Renault AH(x).

Pure military SMP vehicles are cooler and more capable, but I strongly suspect they tend to be harder to make/sustain over the span of a peer-on-peer war. If we can find an 90% solution that is based on commercial parts, we are setting ourselves up for greater success in the event we need more than 600 of them.