Indian or Chinese Regiment

[Matt_Fisher]

I'm just throwing this one out in the wind to see where it goes.

The Canadian Army has units of ethnic origin, namely the Irish and Scottish/Highland regiments due to the ethnic makeup of Canada at the time of the inception of these said units.

Times have changed and there are other large groups of immigrants in Canada now, two groups being Indian and Chinese.

Has there ever been any thought of forming an "Indian Regiment of Canada" or a Canadian perpetuator to the Royal Hong Kong Regiment, ie. "Royal Hong Kong Regiment of Canada"?

This may sound silly, but I'm interested in the feedback it genarates.

Cheers!

 

[chrisf]

No, you're right... it does sound silly.

 

[Inch]

I could be way off here Matt, but I was under the impression that most of our Regiment's names come from the British system for naming Regiments.  Highland/Scottish/Irish regiments were founded based on a tie to a British regiment, not because they were mostly made up of Irish/Scottish troops, at least here in Canada, the Brits may have had a different idea on the subject.  Of course the French regiments are made up of French people, but one could argue that we're all the same race.

I also think that setting up a regiment for a particular ethnicity is just an invitation for disaster.  Who are you going to send into battle first?

Even with the different make up of Canada's ethnicity, the majority still come from British/French backgrounds.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers

 

[BDTyre]

I'm not sure if there's been any official thought on it, but I personally would not object.  At the same time, I can see the idea not flying because really, what is the point?  Yes, we could create such reigments in honour of the contribution of those ethnicities to Canada, but they would be ethnic in name only which doesn't really go with Canada's image of being multicultural.  Point in case are the Highland units.  The majority of people in Highland units are not of Scottish descent.  (Point in case: I've known four or five Seaforths, none have been of Scottish descent, and one was Hungarian and one of asian descent).  Realistically, asians and east indians do not enter the Canadian Forces as often as people of European descent.  While creating such regiments might encourage them to join, it would also encourage ethnic divisions among the forces.  (i.e., whites saying "I can't join an East Indian unit, I'm white" or Asians saying "If I join an Irish unit, I'll get treated poorly").  And in all fairness, would an East Indian from Edmonton join the Royal Ghurkas of Toronto reserve regiment?  What would decide which city gets which unit?  Would it be based on what percentage of what minority is largest in which city?  This again promotes division along ethnic lines.  Should Vancouver get an asian regiment because it has one of the largest Chinatowns in North America.  Should Surrey get a Sikh regiment or Hindu regiment because it has a large population of both?  Should Nova Scotia get a black or West Indian regiment because they tend to be numerically stronger there than in Regina?  What about Italians, or Russians, or Iranians?

On the plus side, it would encourage minorities to join as they know they could go to a unit which would observe there traditions and they would be serving with other members of their community.  I think it would also foster multiculturalism, our government being able to say "We have a strong multicultural military, so much so that we've created regiments to reflect the make up of our forces."

Again, I'm not opposed to this idea.  However, I think in today's world, it is a loaded issue.

 

[Rfn]

Interesting idea Matt. Here in Winnipeg the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders were formed after the St Andrew's society, the Sons of Scotland and the rest of the Scottish mafia petitioned for a highland regiment to be formed.

I would be for it, IF these groups asked for one. I think it would help develop unit cohesion right off.

 

[winchable]

Loaded Issue is right,
Never thought of it though.

CF infrastructure and funding aside it's an interesting idea to look at theoretically.

It would be interesting to see the "Mesopotamian Regiment" or "Shang Hai Light infantry"
Nicknames would be intersting too.

Who are you going to send into battle first?

"Right then, the first wave will be made up of the Mesopotamian 1st mechanized infantry and the Royal Canadian Ghurkas, which from here on in will be referred to as 'Operation Human Shield'"

Although I've always maintained if you could raise an entire unit of Arab soldiers on modern training, tactics and equipment you would find they'd be an awe inspiring fighting force, it's an interesting thought experiment but realistically would probably create more politicall fallout than the CF can handle.

 

[pbi]

I've often thought along these lines. As Matt pointed out, we have spent the public penny for over a century on dressing Canadian Infantry soldiers (Regular and Reserve) in the ethnic dress of Celts and Gaels, while maintaining various traditions connected to these ethnic groups. We also maintain units (in fact a full Bde) that are largely French-unilingual in function if not in law. So, you could certainly argue that some precedent exists.

The problem arises if you intend to restrict membership to a a particular ethnic group-how would you realistically do that in Canada today, in a publicly funded institution? The point about the Highland, Scottish and (one) Irish units is that as long as you don't mind wearing the gear, you can join regardless of ethnicity. Could that be the case in a Sikh Regt, or a Chinese Regt?

One case in which I would definitely encourage this approaxh would be amongst our First Nations: we already have Rangers (quite successful) and out here in LFWA we have Bold Eagle (fairly successful) and Tommy Prince (very mixed reviews...) so why not take the next step and form Res units in First Nation communities? Talk about the "warrior spirit"!

Cheers.

 

[Acorn]

We used to add "Mac" as a prefix to non-Scottish names in the Seaforth. Lots of Chinese and Greek names. It seemed kind of weird.

This issue is one of the things that used to get under my skin when people were making big noise about turbans. My point is that Sikhs have been serving the Empire for as long as any Canadian regiments, with laurels well deserved.

Indian and Pakistani regiments have the same base of tradition that we do. The only reason for not adding an Indo-Canadian regiment to the OB is that we don't have a place to put them.

Acorn

 

[Deleted member 585]

Something I've not thought about much -- however, traditions, practices and regulations do shift to reflect (1) cultural changes within the Forces, i.e. significant Sikh, Muslim, and Aboriginal presence; and (2) socio-economic changes, i.e. education, literacy and familiarity with technology of enrolees.  Whether it is productive or even practical to further culturally sequester troops, I am uncertain.

All seriousness aside, how about modelling a Regiment after the largely contrived "urban" cultural element, complete with a hip-hop Regimental march, "Ostendo Mihi Viaticus" (Show Me Da Money) as the Regimental motto,  extra-baggy-crotch-to-the-knee CADPAT uniforms, and a custom LBV to accomodate excess bling-bling and spare Mac-10 ammo.  :threat:

Cheers.

 

[pbi]

All seriousness aside, how about modelling a Regimant after the largely contrived "urban" cultural element, complete with a hip-hop Regimental march, "Ostendo Mihi Viaticus" (Show Me Da Money) as the Regimental motto,  extra-baggy-crotch-to-the-knee CADPAT uniforms, and a custom LBV to accomodate excess bling-bling and spare Mac-10 ammo. 

You laugh, but years ago I visited the State Street Armoury in Buffalo, NY. Located in the armoury was an ARNG MP unit. For recruiting purposes, they had taken one of their MUT jeeps (anybody remember those shitboxes when we used them..) and painted it metallic purple with chrome fittings and fancy upholstery, as well as extra lights and sirens. The Sgt Maj told me (this is the truth now, "PC" or not....) "it's great for recruiting those coloured guys". I do not necessarily agree with the implied assumptions, but that is what he said. Cheers.

 

[xFusilier]

[Although I've always maintained if you could raise an entire unit of Arab soldiers on modern training, tactics and equipment you would find they'd be an awe inspiring fighting force, it's an interesting thought experiment but realistically would probably create more politicall fallout than the CF can handle.

Already done, it was called the Arab Legion, granted it wasn't the CF it was the British Army.

 

[winchable]

Already done, it was called the Arab Legion, granted it wasn't the CF it was the British Army.

That's generally the historical example I cite when ranting.
In fact the Arab Legion still lives on today, they police the Desert where the borders are undefined in the Arabian Peninsular.
Very unique to the region, they've perfected policing the desert against illegal trade, arms running, drug running etc. Mostly Bedouin so they can cross the things like "The suns Anvil" and actually live, so that's neat.

And we can't forget Al-Lawrence and the Arab Revolt against the Ottomans who if I'm not mistaken were the predecessor for the Arab Legion. That is once the Brits figured out if they could actually get the Arabs to fight for them they would fight well.
The Mamluks, brutal poets who saved Islam from numerous invading armies, although not predominately Arab, very Spartan if not even better. Maybe a bit too old of an example.

"Oh get off your horse Che"
Or is it a camel.
Sorry, sorry, Straying off topic, I'll send myself a warning.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The days of raising regiments - any kind of regiments - are largely over, so I suspect the discussion is quite moot.

If we were to raise new units, rather than basing them on ethnic origin with associated "funny dress", they would probably be based on function - Light Infantry, Mountain Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Armoured Recce, Airborne, etc. and I suspect their name would be associated with their function, or some traditional monicker (ie Foresters) based on location of the regiment also.  Yorkton Light Infantry, Cranbrooke Foresters, Banff and Canmore Alpine Regiment....

Ukrainians are a far more important segment of ethnic society in places like Edmonton, Saskatchewan and parts of Manitoba, they would probably be a better candidate for ethnic representation - and I don't see anyone doing it.  What would their traditional dress look like?  Fur hats and bandoliers like the cossacks?  Interesting, but unnecessary, in my opinion.  In many ways they are a founding "race" of Canada if you will, and their representation in military dress has been nil.  Can't see giving over to the Sikhs or Natives at this point.

I also can't see anybody in power seroiusly suggesting something so potentially devisive.

 

[R031button]

I've often thought along these lines. As Matt pointed out, we have spent the public penny for over a century on dressing Canadian Infantry soldiers (Regular and Reserve) in the ethnic dress of Celts and Gaels, while maintaining various traditions connected to these ethnic groups. We also maintain units (in fact a full Bde) that are largely French-unilingual in function if not in law. So, you could certainly argue that some precedent exists.

The problem arises if you intend to restrict membership to a a particular ethnic group-how would you realistically do that in Canada today, in a publicly funded institution? The point about the Highland, Scottish and (one) Irish units is that as long as you don't mind wearing the gear, you can join regardless of ethnicity. Could that be the case in a Sikh Regt, or a Chinese Regt?

One case in which I would definitely encourage this approaxh would be amongst our First Nations: we already have Rangers (quite successful) and out here in LFWA we have Bold Eagle (fairly successful) and Tommy Prince (very mixed reviews...) so why not take the next step and form Res units in First Nation communities? Talk about the "warrior spirit"!

Cheers.

You know, you could probly help out native communities (espeically in the west) by have Res units with large bases built around smaller, poorer reserves. Build them up in the community and give the dissillusioned youth so prevelent there something to aspire to become.

 

[Kirkhill]

In fact the Arab Legion still lives on today, they police the Desert where the borders are undefined in the Arabian Peninsular.

They also have some pretty fair pipers....

 

[Erborn]

Don't we have enough problems without creating more.
 

 

[pbi]

I will be sure alawys

??????????????  ???  Cheers

 

[Shec]

Just a couple of observations and then a comment:

Wasn't there an all-Japanese Canadian battalion in the CEF during WW1?
And, arguably the Canadian Rangers are an ethnic unit.

Now having said that why are we even going here?  One of my cherished memories of my short stint of service in the CF was the opportunity to meet and befriend people from all walks of life and ethnic and religious backgrounds.    Sometimes the PC philosophy of accomodating minorities goes to far and the policy of multi-culturalism has the potential to divide rather than unify this country.  I think this where the Americans have us beat with their melting pot rather than our cultural mosiac ethic.  At least they are, in theory anyway, Americans first.  Sorry for the rant.

And for the record - I'm a member of a religious minority.
 

 

[pbi]

Just a couple of observations and then a comment:

Wasn't there an all-Japanese Canadian battalion in the CEF during WW1?
And, arguably the Canadian Rangers are an ethnic unit.

Now having said that why are we even going here? One of my cherished memories of my short stint of service in the CF was the opportunity to meet and befriend people from all walks of life and ethnic and religious backgrounds. Sometimes the PC philosophy of accomodating minorities goes to far and the policy of multi-culturalism has the potential to divide rather than unify this country. I think this where the Americans have us beat with their melting pot rather than our cultural mosiac ethic. At least they are, in theory anyway, Americans first. Sorry for the rant.

And for the record - I'm a member of a religious minority.

Shec: Not sure about the Nisei unit, but Rangers are not specifically aboriginal: a very high percentage are, but there are also non-aboriginal Rangers, and the C2 of the CRPGs is mostly non-aboriginal.

On the issue of the ethnically based units, while I have advocated exploring this idea in the past, I think that in the end you are probably right. IMHO we make a mistake when, as soldiers, we pay so much attention to what makes us different from each other. We should focus on what unites us and what we have in common, and on the goal of being the best soldiers we can be. IMHO we don;t need "days" for certain visible minorities, because by extension the other days of the year are.......what?........ "Not-(Insert Minority Here) Days"?-- I would much rather that we built units with strong cohesion and good leadership that cut across ethnic lines. I believe that if we genuinely did that, issues of racism and sexual harassment would dwindle. Cheers.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Wasn't there an all-Japanese Canadian battalion in the CEF during WW1?
   

AFAICT they were integrated into regular battalions.  Some battalions refused, preferring white troops.  The Tenth Battalion had what I believe is one of the largest contingents of Japanese-Canadians (our regimental museum has an entire display devoted to them (we perpetuate the Tenth)) on its rolls.  Some officers didn't want them, but several were decorated for bravery and were good soldiers.  Many of them were interned in 1942, medals or no.

But from my (poor) understanding of the situation, they did not have their own battalion as the Japanese-Americans did in WW II.  I stand to be corrected, however, but given the description of the handful of Japanese soldiers in the Tenth as one of the largest drafts of such, I'd say it wasn't likely?

Canadian Rangers may be in fact an ethnic unit but I don't think it is reflected in their organization, uniforms or traditions other than in practical terms as far as use of civilian clothing, red ball caps, Lee Enfields, etc. go.